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Author Topic: Isn't unemployment a good thing?  (Read 17582 times)

kaijyuu

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Re: Isn't unemployment a good thing?
« Reply #75 on: May 09, 2012, 07:25:03 pm »

"Devil's advocate" merely means taking a contrary position to invite discussion. Has nothing to do with being "correct" or "incorrect."


Nevermind the silliness of trying to assert "right" or "wrong" in a political discussion...
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Quote from: Chesterton
For, in order that men should resist injustice, something more is necessary than that they should think injustice unpleasant. They must think injustice absurd; above all, they must think it startling. They must retain the violence of a virgin astonishment. When the pessimist looks at any infamy, it is to him, after all, only a repetition of the infamy of existence. But the optimist sees injustice as something discordant and unexpected, and it stings him into action.

Immortal

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Re: Isn't unemployment a good thing?
« Reply #76 on: May 09, 2012, 07:25:39 pm »

A correct man cannot be a devils advocate.
To clarify, is my first post or second the correct?

Kaijyuu - I believe he just meant to state that he agrees with the position.
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UltraValican

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Re: Isn't unemployment a good thing?
« Reply #77 on: May 09, 2012, 07:40:11 pm »


....

Often people mistake unlucky for "weak" and "incompetent."  This is a tragedy.

There are probably 15-20 Million people unemployed people in the US currently. Isn't it interesting many of them got laid off at about the same time after years, sometimes decades, of stable work? How about college students who are exactly the same as the crop of kids who graduated a couple years before they did but just can't find work? Did millions upon millions of people suddenly go from competent to incompetent in an incredibly short period of time? How? Or, more likely, did the system just go wonky?

Many of those people are unemployed because the company they work for tanked and is no longer in business due to the economy or the incompetence of managers.... Many of those people had jobs, but due to outsourcing to a country with practically slave labor costs, they just don't anymore. These are factors entirely out of their control. If your boss is a moron and tanks the business, or the economy just sucks/nobody is buying what the company you work for is selling, then that isn't your fault, because there's absolutely nothing you can do about it.

What's really great, people love to throw around works like "weak" and "incompetent," in relation to "other" people (certainly not themselves). It gives us an excuse to look down on people while impliedly trying to make ourselves look good by comparison. Never mind that, it's not fun to think that way. It also isn't fun to think, truthfully, that one day someone could decide you or I are "weak" and "incompetent." It can happen and it does....
I'm not trying to prop myself on a pedestal, or look down on anyone(Hell, most members of my family are on SOME sort of wellfare/goverment-aid, which is probally why I responded the way I did). I misunderstood Immortal's post. When I used the word "weak" I was refering to children and the elderly. When I used "incompetent" I was refering to the ridoculous notion that un-employed were stupid. Again, I misunderstood.
No offence taken. See above statement.
My background starts at lower middle class family. I worked my ass off along with parents, tried my best, and now I'm in engineering currently on co-op still working. My parents have now moved up and would be middle class, maybe upper middle(depending on your view). Father was a baker, mother was a waitress.

Have you not noticed the fact that humans aren't really getting much smarter? (Please don't pick apart the next view on evolution, different topic) Humans are no longer being weeded out. The government and people who support the action suspend everyone at a level we cannot sustain. How many contries have positive revenue? I agree with the opening poster, we are stuck in a loop which cannot be sustained. It needs to be streamlines and removed from government hands. Though support is obviously needed for the aformention groups of people who will soon/have contributed to society.

Ninja'd by Truean - read above. Either way the US economy is far beyond easy repair.

I am slightly being a devil's advocate for arguement sake.
I agree the way we are living is not stable/sustainable, but people do not necessarily needed to be "weeded" out. The problem is that people grow complacent with living off welfare. We need a new way of thinking. People have never really gotten "smarter", a homo sapian baby from the dawn of civilization(ignoring disease ressistance and things like that) could be raised to speak the same languages and use the same tools if raised by modern humans. We have the same potential, its the tools at our disposal that determines how much we learn and how we can use it.  Humanity needs a cultural revolution I.E less apathy.
I apoligize for mistakes I have other things to do.

Also a discussion without a devil's advocate is pretty boring. :)
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Frumple

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Re: Isn't unemployment a good thing?
« Reply #78 on: May 09, 2012, 07:43:46 pm »

@Immortal: Hey, if you can point at a single nation or group at any point in post agrarian history -- especially since, say, industrialization started -- that has maintained anything even remotely approaching stability while practicing what you're preaching, I'll give that you might have a point.

Problem being, it's generally a really bloody terrible sign (especially re: continued existence) for a group of any number to be allowing its members, even the sort you're railing about, to starve to death, or to be executing them as par for course. It doesn't work now, it hasn't worked in the past, and, extrapolation being what it is, it's pretty bloodly likely not to work in the future.

As for the intelligence thing, yeah, you're abusing evolutionary theory with that rigamarole. Major physiological changes (such as a majorly notable upswing in intelligence) don't occur in a period as small as recorded history. On the bright side! We've had pretty good indicators that general intelligence among human beings has seen a notable upswing in the last few centuries! Folks are pretty sure that has more to do with better eating and living conditions than anything related to the evolutionary aspects of culling off the weak, though. Culling the weak basically stopped doing anything to us about five seconds after we sharpened the first stick.

Anyway, yeah, social darwinism was a failed theory before it even got its name. It's been torn to so many pieces since people started spouting it, it's almost farcical at this point. Hence I might be going off on people a little with this, maybe. It's somewhat irking to see people advocate a conceptual system so baldfaced broken.
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Leafsnail

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Re: Isn't unemployment a good thing?
« Reply #79 on: May 09, 2012, 07:43:46 pm »

temporarily injured
Hahaha wow.  I love the emphasis.

Really... I find debating with social Darwinists possibly the most pointless debate there is.  More pointless even than a religious debate.  Because they just fundamentally don't agree with basic principles like "We should try and make life as good as possible for people".  Nope, they're all about creating a better race of humans, even if it means we're all fucking miserable and could be thrown onto the scrapheap at any moment if we end up permanently injured.
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kaijyuu

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Re: Isn't unemployment a good thing?
« Reply #80 on: May 09, 2012, 07:54:03 pm »

Mmm yeah I don't believe people have to prove anything to have worth enough to live. The only "stagnation of the human race" I see is when people are forced to live lives they don't find fulfilling. That has nothing to do with productivity (unless the individual makes it that way).
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Quote from: Chesterton
For, in order that men should resist injustice, something more is necessary than that they should think injustice unpleasant. They must think injustice absurd; above all, they must think it startling. They must retain the violence of a virgin astonishment. When the pessimist looks at any infamy, it is to him, after all, only a repetition of the infamy of existence. But the optimist sees injustice as something discordant and unexpected, and it stings him into action.

Immortal

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Re: Isn't unemployment a good thing?
« Reply #81 on: May 09, 2012, 08:01:25 pm »

Leafsnail - Your coming off as slightly hostile to an ideal that isn't even held by anyone here. Also your exageratting the argument.

Frumple - You may ignore the darwinist points, as I hadn't given it as much as a thought. I was hoping this thread would turn more towards a liberal vs socialist argument.

Kaigyuu - If someone does absolutely nothing.. you think we should support them?


Edit:Spelling
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kaijyuu

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Re: Isn't unemployment a good thing?
« Reply #82 on: May 09, 2012, 08:04:12 pm »

Kaigyuu - If someone does absolutely nothing.. you think we should support them?
Eeyup. Ideally, anyway; practical concerns might get in the way.
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Quote from: Chesterton
For, in order that men should resist injustice, something more is necessary than that they should think injustice unpleasant. They must think injustice absurd; above all, they must think it startling. They must retain the violence of a virgin astonishment. When the pessimist looks at any infamy, it is to him, after all, only a repetition of the infamy of existence. But the optimist sees injustice as something discordant and unexpected, and it stings him into action.

Lord Dullard

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Re: Isn't unemployment a good thing?
« Reply #83 on: May 09, 2012, 08:06:35 pm »

Agree. 'Nothing' is subjective, and if you have the means to provide everybody with basic necessities, there's no particular reason not to, from a societal standpoint. That person doing 'nothing' might be unproductive because s/he's coming up with the cure for cancer, for all you know.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2012, 08:12:15 pm by Lord Dullard »
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King DZA

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Re: Isn't unemployment a good thing?
« Reply #84 on: May 09, 2012, 08:13:08 pm »

If people would stop focusing on looking for other people to make things right, and instead put more effort into seeing how they can best contribute themselves, things wouldn't have to be as complicated.
Do you really believe that the general populace would ever consider this? I personally believe the general public is close to incompetent, they are given food if they do nothing. The weak always survive, even when they are close to useless, all because "everyone deserves to live". I say thats bull, if you don't contribute you don't get a slice of the pie.

When I talk to people about everyone having to contribute, their mind usually jumps to something akin to slavery. Where everyone is forced to work and provide regardless of their opinion, and get killed/neglected if they refuse. What I actually mean is more like, "Everyone is good at something. Find what you're good at, and see how you could use it to the benefit of those around you." You don't have to be working in the coal mines so that you can earn your next meal. If you like farming or gardening, grow some food so that you and other can have a more varied diet. If you like painting, hone your skills and share your work with those who appreciate your style. Of course, people usually have more than just one interest, so they can contribute in multiple ways.

You sound as though liberterianism would suit you.

I don't bother trying to fit into specific groups. With them comes prejudice, which gives people an excuse to disregard what I say because they generally disagree with said group.

@kingDZA
Hrm, not sure what you mean by that.


If you mean banding together for protests/etc, just take a look at occupy wall street. People do band together to try and make change.
If you mean stand up and do things yourself, then authority figures have more power to stifle your efforts than you do to accomplish them. By a large margin.



We could all go on strike, or boycott stuff, or whatever, but that's still forcing authority figures into action. If I'm reading your post right, that's not good enough for you, to which I can only reply "tough break, babycakes."

Protesting? No. At most, that should be a minor part of any movement, used to make others more aware. For some reason, it's treated as the primary form of action. Everyone just needs to realize that their lives do not need to built around what the authority figures say. Those authority figures are no more powerful than anyone else, it's just that they have more people listening to them, that's why the general mindset must be changed. You do not have to listen to anyone. Knowing when to draw the line when those figures get too used to having authority is vital to having a future that sucks significantly less than the present, in my opinion.


As for low level government, DZA, which is basically what you're talking about, it's a wonderful idea that consistently breaks down once you hit a certain population density -- simple fact is that sheer logistics demand a certain degree of authority figures after things hit a certain point. It's certainly a lower and less pervasive degree than we've got (mostly because of the whole power seeks more power thing), though. Communications technology might be cutting into the extent that's necessary (See some of the Arab Spring stuff, ferex), but it's still years from actually coming into full maturity.

The why of it not really working is just scope, more or less. People working as individuals, even in tandem, have serious problems dealing with issues beyond the level of information they're able to process. You end up needing specialists in processing and disseminating that information appropriately -- i.e. authority figures. That gets the ball rolling, and then we end up where we're at. There's potential for technological solutions in the future, but at the moment all we can try to do is mitigate the damage to the extent we're able (currently failing pretty hardcore, but it could be worse).


It's obvious that these ideas wouldn't work on the same scale things are currently on. It would have to be more local. Instead of massive industries providing for whole populations, it would have to much smaller communities primarily providing for its members. Ideally sharing the excess produce with whatever other community needed it.

Specialists are fine. There are going to be people who are particularly adept at things to pass on the knowledge to others, of course. It's not really that authority figures should be completely eliminated, it's that people should be intelligent enough to know when the figure starts trying to use that authority for their own personal advantage. So when a tyrant begins to rise, they are simply able to look at them and say "Nah, that's fucking stupid." and not have it escalate any further.

Immortal

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Re: Isn't unemployment a good thing?
« Reply #85 on: May 09, 2012, 08:22:02 pm »

Would we give them housing they won't maintain? I assume several people per house, which may be better then a family with five children.
Also as the current system works, if we compare them to the inmates they would get better healthcare then the elderly who did contribute to society because they are under the govenments care.
Would they recieve dental as well, even though lower working class people have trouble affording such things? I would hope not.

Lord Dullard - I'll clarify my points a little more from now on. I would take nothing to mean, they just want to sit there and contribute nothing, they only take. Someone coming up with a cure for cancer would obviously declare themselves as such.
If the world was capable of supporting everyone that well we would not have this arguement, but the current state constrains us to be incapable of such things.

Can we keep the arguement somewhat realistic? We cannot support everyone in the current state.

DZA - I do not mean to put you in a specific group. The general views of said group just seem to coincide with yours. The removal of a overarching government, and the emplacement of a more localized government would solve many issues.
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fenrif

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Re: Isn't unemployment a good thing?
« Reply #86 on: May 09, 2012, 08:27:54 pm »

When I talk to people about everyone having to contribute, their mind usually jumps to something akin to slavery. Where everyone is forced to work and provide regardless of their opinion, and get killed/neglected if they refuse. What I actually mean is more like, "Everyone is good at something. Find what you're good at, and see how you could use it to the benefit of those around you." You don't have to be working in the coal mines so that you can earn your next meal. If you like farming or gardening, grow some food so that you and other can have a more varied diet. If you like painting, hone your skills and share your work with those who appreciate your style. Of course, people usually have more than just one interest, so they can contribute in multiple ways.

I don't think many people are particularily good at or interested in sewage management. Or cleaning toilets. (Well, I suppose someone somewhere is probobly REALLY good at cleaning toilets, but you get my point)

Would we give them housing they won't maintain? I assume several people per house, which may be better then a family with five children.
Also as the current system works, if we compare them to the inmates they would get better healthcare then the elderly who did contribute to society because they are under the govenments care.
Would they recieve dental as well, even though lower working class people have trouble affording such things? I would hope not.
...
Can we keep the arguement somewhat realistic? We cannot support everyone in the current state.

So people can just say "hey im working on curing cancer" and still get benefits? I think that society would be full of many people trying and failing to cure cancer/the common cold/solve world peace, etc.

And what makes you say "we cannot support everyone in the current state?" Any sources?
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Lord Dullard

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Re: Isn't unemployment a good thing?
« Reply #87 on: May 09, 2012, 08:34:16 pm »

http://www.economist.com/node/18200702

In fact we are fully capable of providing the world with more than enough food. As for housing, etc., I suspect we're also more than capable of providing such things. Medical needs are probably harder to address, but then again human beings in the first world are already living way into senescence. The problem is not whether or not we're capable, it's that the system doesn't care. The system feeds on competition and scarcity.

Also, my argument wasn't whether to judge that someone is useful or not. It was that if we were capable of providing a decent life to everybody without harming anyone in the process, it seems obvious that we should do it. After all, if your argument is that you can judge useless people to not be worth supporting, then you should also take away other rights from those useful people - civil liberties are not worth bestowing upon the useless, since they don't help to uphold the society that would give them those civil liberties. Might as well toss them into slave pits or turn them into Soylent Green, right?
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Leafsnail

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Re: Isn't unemployment a good thing?
« Reply #88 on: May 09, 2012, 08:37:24 pm »

Leafsnail - Your coming off as slightly hostile to an ideal that isn't even held by anyone here. Also your exageratting the argument.
You stressed temporarily.  As far as I can tell that means you think that people who are permanently injured should be discarded.
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Immortal

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Re: Isn't unemployment a good thing?
« Reply #89 on: May 09, 2012, 08:53:33 pm »

Quote
And what makes you say "we cannot support everyone in the current state?" Any sources?]
And who is paying for this? I know the US government isn't capable of it. Hell it can't even do what it currently does..

Quote
It was that if we were capable of providing a decent life to everybody without harming anyone in the process, it seems obvious that we should do it.
And yet we are not capable of such a thing.. If we could obviously we should. Are you paying for it?

Leafsnail - Your coming off as slightly hostile to an ideal that isn't even held by anyone here. Also your exageratting the argument.
You stressed temporarily.  As far as I can tell that means you think that people who are permanently injured should be discarded.
People permanently injured should be cared for as we should elderly. They have contributed.. I didn't respond to you fully because you seemed heated, and continue to.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2012, 08:57:53 pm by Immortal »
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