Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 ... 38 39 [40] 41 42 ... 100

Author Topic: Path of Exile - Betrayal  (Read 247191 times)

Descan

  • Bay Watcher
  • [HEADING INTENSIFIES]
    • View Profile
Re: Path of Exile - Release & Scion
« Reply #585 on: February 18, 2014, 11:41:08 am »

If there were a way to dispute a death as caused by desync, it'd solve a lot of issues. Could the game automatically detect a desync issue resulting in a death abd revert it? Especially for Hardcore mode.
Logged
Quote from: SalmonGod
Your innocent viking escapades for canadian social justice and immortality make my flagellum wiggle, too.
Quote from: Myroc
Descan confirmed for antichrist.
Quote from: LeoLeonardoIII
I wonder if any of us don't love Descan.

Aklyon

  • Bay Watcher
  • Fate~
    • View Profile
Re: Path of Exile - Release & Scion
« Reply #586 on: February 18, 2014, 11:50:47 am »

Then people would be complaining you could respawn in HC.

Although, whether or not that would overwhelm the desync complaints is another thing entirely.
Logged
Crystalline (SG)
Sigtext
Quote from: RedKing
It's known as the Oppai-Kaiju effect. The islands of Japan generate a sort anti-gravity field, which allows breasts to behave as if in microgravity. It's also what allows Godzilla and friends to become 50 stories tall, and lets ninjas run up the side of a skyscraper.

Descan

  • Bay Watcher
  • [HEADING INTENSIFIES]
    • View Profile
Re: Path of Exile - Release & Scion
« Reply #587 on: February 18, 2014, 11:52:59 am »

Yes, they probably would, because they're stupid. "I want my character that I've spent weeks developing to die because of server issues beyond my control and to STAY dead!"
Logged
Quote from: SalmonGod
Your innocent viking escapades for canadian social justice and immortality make my flagellum wiggle, too.
Quote from: Myroc
Descan confirmed for antichrist.
Quote from: LeoLeonardoIII
I wonder if any of us don't love Descan.

Mictlantecuhtli

  • Bay Watcher
  • Grinning God of Death
    • View Profile
Re: Path of Exile - Release & Scion
« Reply #588 on: February 18, 2014, 03:51:32 pm »

I've had close calls with HC desync issues even with my extremely OP character. It's a very real issue, and only silly people think it's perfectly fine for server-side issues to influence your game.
Logged
I am surrounded by flesh and bone, I am a temple of living. Maybe I'll maybe my life away.

Santorum leaves a bad taste in my mouth,
Card-carrying Liberaltarian

kcwong

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Path of Exile - Release & Scion
« Reply #589 on: February 18, 2014, 09:39:03 pm »

I've had close calls with HC desync issues even with my extremely OP character. It's a very real issue, and only silly people think it's perfectly fine for server-side issues to influence your game.

Desycn is NOT a server side issue. It's a issue with time needed for data to travel between server and client. If you don't want server-side problems influencing your game you will have to play an offline game.

I don't know if people are even reading or understanding GGG's posts in desync thread.
Logged

nenjin

  • Bay Watcher
  • Inscrubtable Exhortations of the Soul
    • View Profile
Re: Path of Exile - Release & Scion
« Reply #590 on: February 18, 2014, 09:54:10 pm »

No, I haven't yet read it.

But since you have, answer me this. Why do I get desyncs fighting a single boss in a large room, because I use the pillar to block LOS and force him to move instead of attack? Why can I have 50 guys in a room with no desyncs when I'm outside of it, but the minute I step in I desync like crazy? Why can I be standing still and then during a desync, the game actually moves my character somewhere else? If the data is getting that mangled, there is a systemic problem.

If the issue is the time needed for the data to travel between server and client, then they need to optimize it further to send less data more often. At that cap? Then the data they're generating is too chunky. Again, my gut tells me its the pathfinding and LOS calcs serverside, based on where I've seen desyncs happen the most. Doesn't happen in the Dominus fight because the angles there are soft and there's lots of room to establish and keep LOS.

Whenever I die to a desync, it basically kills my motivation to play for the night. Especially at the higher levels when you can't just laugh off the penalty for dying, you have to plan around it if you want to get anywhere. And going three hours without dying only to have your legs cut out from under you by a desync is a massive FU, that they shouldn't be giving up on. My basic strategy is: farm an easy area with my loot gear on to gain actual levels, then put on my true gear and treat all the xp I'm earning as disposable. The ONLY reason I feel I have to play this way is the desyncs.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2014, 11:47:08 pm by nenjin »
Logged
Cautivo del Milagro seamos, Penitente.
Quote from: Viktor Frankl
When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.
Quote from: Sindain
Its kinda silly to complain that a friendly NPC isn't a well designed boss fight.
Quote from: Eric Blank
How will I cheese now assholes?
Quote from: MrRoboto75
Always spaghetti, never forghetti

kcwong

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Path of Exile - Release & Scion
« Reply #591 on: February 19, 2014, 12:52:45 am »

No, I haven't yet read it.

But since you have, answer me this. Why do I get desyncs fighting a single boss in a large room, because I use the pillar to block LOS and force him to move instead of attack? Why can I have 50 guys in a room with no desyncs when I'm outside of it, but the minute I step in I desync like crazy? Why can I be standing still and then during a desync, the game actually moves my character somewhere else? If the data is getting that mangled, there is a systemic problem.

The truth is you are desync'ed all the time. The game client is not at the same game state as server. It is not apparent to you because that's exactly what client-side prediction aims to do - make game play look responsive and real time, even though data has not arrived from server yet.  It's the same on server-side; the simulation continues to run with or without data from the client. Both client and server uses prediction to continue to simulation while waiting for data to arrive. When data arrives they make adjustments to the game state to keep it more or less synchronized.

If you are on a big, flat and empty grassland, it doesn't matter if you are at (213,445) in client and (223,435) on server. You keep moving in client and server, and eventually when you stop moving, your location will synchronize on both ends. The client during all that time will provide you instantaneous feedback, moving your character as your input.

But if there are lots of trees and you are trying to hide behind them, then the difference in game state will be more apparent. In client you are moving right between two trees, but on server your position is actually 5 units to the left and you got blocked by the tree. In client you keep inputting commands for more actions; eventually both client and server catch the fact the game states are unrecoverable. So the client or server requests a resynchronization, server sends the full game state to client. Once the client get that, it snaps you and everything back, and at this point you think "Desync!" but the client is actually at the most synchronized state.

Some games hide desync by taking shortcuts. e.g.

- Not having narrow terrain, so your chance of getting stuck on something is much lower.
- Turning off collision check for some objects.
- The calculation of whether an attack hit or not is performed at the time when the attack is initiated. i.e. Vaal's hammer raised when you are in range = you are dead versus having the ability to run away before it lands.

Back to your case: Your desync could've been built up for some time. Then you start the fight with the boss (I'm assuming Brutus or Kole). You attempt to hide behind a wall, but due to the desync build-up, in server game state you are actually in front of the wall. So Brutus/Kole drags you in, your position rapidly changed. In server game state you are right up in the face with the boss, in client game state you are standing behind wall. Resynchronization ordered, server sends full state to client. You teleported to boss, probably dead shortly after as the game goes on despite of the resync, you got hit a few times already. At this time you think "Desync!".

The client-prediction technique is first in use by Duke Nukem 3D in 1996, and have been used by real time online games ever since. So I can't really give you a live example of what would happen if you don't use it. But basically the client would freeze up if data from server is delayed. You would press a key to attack... then nothing. Your character won't execute it until your input reaches the server and the server can get a response back to you. Which would suck for any real time games. That's what I meant with online real time equals to living with desync.

If the issue is the time needed for the data to travel between server and client, then they need to optimize it further to send less data more often. At that cap? Then the data they're generating is too chunky. Again, my gut tells me its the pathfinding and LOS calcs serverside, based on where I've seen desyncs happen the most. Doesn't happen in the Dominus fight because the angles there are soft and there's lots of room to establish and keep LOS.

With the client-prediction model, they are already sending less data more often. The time required for data to reach server and back (e.g. 200ms + 200ms), a real time game don't stand still to wait.

Server calculates how the enemies act, which is based on server's copy of your position. When resynchronization happens you get corrected to server's game state, which makes you think it's pathfinding/LoS related.

If you dare, you can try to run around in Dominus fight. Quaff a quicksilver and keep running through packs of monsters. You will gradually go out of sync, and a resync will happen. You will notice you and/or the monsters snap to different locations. Or do a Merveil run in normal so you don't have to die. Instead of fighting, just keep running around, through passages and monsters with quicksilver on.

Whenever I die to a desync, it basically kills my motivation to play for the night. Especially at the higher levels when you can't just laugh off the penalty for dying, you have to plan around it if you want to get anywhere. And going three hours without dying only to have your legs cut out from under you by a desync is a massive FU, that they shouldn't be giving up on.

I have my fair share of deaths from desync myself, on level 70+ characters.

Do what I suggested - use the /oos command when you catch a hint of a out-sync build up.
Logged

nenjin

  • Bay Watcher
  • Inscrubtable Exhortations of the Soul
    • View Profile
Re: Path of Exile - Release & Scion
« Reply #592 on: February 19, 2014, 01:02:20 am »

I basically do run around during the Dominus fight. Maybe not with QS, but I'm definitely not standing still.

I'll have to try /oos, even though I think it's a slightly ridiculous work around to the issue. I can't really claim to have this problem in a lot of other games, except very sporadically. I knocked D3 for a lot of things, including lag, and sang PoE's praises above it. But this is one area where D3 at least behaves in a way that makes me feel like I'm being screwed less, because at least I can see the desync coming because there are other tells. In PoE, you get about 3 seconds of "wait, what?" before BLAM.
Logged
Cautivo del Milagro seamos, Penitente.
Quote from: Viktor Frankl
When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.
Quote from: Sindain
Its kinda silly to complain that a friendly NPC isn't a well designed boss fight.
Quote from: Eric Blank
How will I cheese now assholes?
Quote from: MrRoboto75
Always spaghetti, never forghetti

kcwong

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Path of Exile - Release & Scion
« Reply #593 on: February 19, 2014, 03:37:08 am »

I basically do run around during the Dominus fight. Maybe not with QS, but I'm definitely not standing still.

I'll have to try /oos, even though I think it's a slightly ridiculous work around to the issue. I can't really claim to have this problem in a lot of other games, except very sporadically. I knocked D3 for a lot of things, including lag, and sang PoE's praises above it. But this is one area where D3 at least behaves in a way that makes me feel like I'm being screwed less, because at least I can see the desync coming because there are other tells. In PoE, you get about 3 seconds of "wait, what?" before BLAM.

Ah, running in the open area is different from running between obstacles. Try running figures of eight inside the crowd, and keep your eyes open for signs of resync!

I have not played D3, but according to others who did, D3 cut some corners by:
- Not having a lot of narrow places to navigate through
- Attacks hit a large area so accurate positioning is less important
- Monsters can pass through each other; this means monsters can freely go after where you are in both client/server game state. This should lead to less desync in monster positions, which in turn should let you know where they are more accurately.
Logged

miljan

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Path of Exile - Release & Scion
« Reply #594 on: February 19, 2014, 08:32:13 am »

Yup, PoE has the worst desinc of any games I ever played. They really made a big mistake when they did the game, as you should never, ever makes something that just breaks and doesnt work in the game.

Generally the game is known for few things that are negative, its desinc as biggest one that will never change and trading simulator, that was never done before in a diablo like game (well d3 did it, but they saw it sucks so are moving away from it).

Logged
Make love not war

Aklyon

  • Bay Watcher
  • Fate~
    • View Profile
Re: Path of Exile - Sacrifice of the Vaal
« Reply #595 on: March 04, 2014, 08:42:59 am »

I'm sorta surprised I was able to play it before. Actually having ~60fps makes things a lot easier than what i had before, though it also makes the desync a bit more apparent.

Anyway, SotV isn't out yet, but they've posted mostly-completed patch notes for it for the interested.
Logged
Crystalline (SG)
Sigtext
Quote from: RedKing
It's known as the Oppai-Kaiju effect. The islands of Japan generate a sort anti-gravity field, which allows breasts to behave as if in microgravity. It's also what allows Godzilla and friends to become 50 stories tall, and lets ninjas run up the side of a skyscraper.

nenjin

  • Bay Watcher
  • Inscrubtable Exhortations of the Soul
    • View Profile
Re: Path of Exile - Sacrifice of the Vaal
« Reply #596 on: March 04, 2014, 10:40:42 am »

They nerfed the fuck out out of Spectral Throw and the Scion tree :(
Logged
Cautivo del Milagro seamos, Penitente.
Quote from: Viktor Frankl
When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.
Quote from: Sindain
Its kinda silly to complain that a friendly NPC isn't a well designed boss fight.
Quote from: Eric Blank
How will I cheese now assholes?
Quote from: MrRoboto75
Always spaghetti, never forghetti

aristabulus

  • Bay Watcher
  • Fnordius Maximus
    • View Profile
Re: Path of Exile - Sacrifice of the Vaal
« Reply #597 on: March 05, 2014, 02:32:13 pm »

They nerfed the fuck out out of Spectral Throw and the Scion tree :(

Of course they did.  The Scion was given favorable balance as a draw when she was added @ Official Release... now that the newness has worn off, the nerf bat comes out.
Logged
If iron is to become steel, it must feel fire! --ancient Dwarven proverb

What is steel compared to the hand that wields it?  --Thulsa Doom

nenjin

  • Bay Watcher
  • Inscrubtable Exhortations of the Soul
    • View Profile
Re: Path of Exile - Sacrifice of the Vaal
« Reply #598 on: March 05, 2014, 02:46:59 pm »

They nerfed the fuck out out of Spectral Throw and the Scion tree :(

Of course they did.  The Scion was given favorable balance as a draw when she was added @ Official Release... now that the newness has worn off, the nerf bat comes out.

I found the nerf to the Circle of Health Values quite unfair. I'd bought almost all of it and I was nowhere near target health for Merciless. No idea where I'm going to make up the diff.
Logged
Cautivo del Milagro seamos, Penitente.
Quote from: Viktor Frankl
When we are no longer able to change a situation, we are challenged to change ourselves.
Quote from: Sindain
Its kinda silly to complain that a friendly NPC isn't a well designed boss fight.
Quote from: Eric Blank
How will I cheese now assholes?
Quote from: MrRoboto75
Always spaghetti, never forghetti

Aklyon

  • Bay Watcher
  • Fate~
    • View Profile
Re: Path of Exile - Sacrifice of the Vaal
« Reply #599 on: March 06, 2014, 12:18:00 am »

So, first of all, Ambush is awesome with its strongboxes, especially Gemcutters strongboxes. You can manipulate the boxes with any currency you have on you that effects it (alchs, chances, alts, etc.). But also, Me and Bluerobin had something sorta hilarious happen that would've been less entertaining outside of normal, probably.
We had a strongbox that explodes nearby corpses. I'd hit everything that popped out with flameblast, and suddenly I'm the only one in the cave except for the portal. :) :P
Logged
Crystalline (SG)
Sigtext
Quote from: RedKing
It's known as the Oppai-Kaiju effect. The islands of Japan generate a sort anti-gravity field, which allows breasts to behave as if in microgravity. It's also what allows Godzilla and friends to become 50 stories tall, and lets ninjas run up the side of a skyscraper.
Pages: 1 ... 38 39 [40] 41 42 ... 100