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[greenskye]

Personally I've read both of your posts 3 times and I still don't see any insults being made. He made a slightly snarky comment about why you asked about focusing on rubble in a thread about rubble, questioned if you had read the entire thread (in a benign and non-insulting way), and stated his opinion that asking for rubble to not be implemented due to performance concerns or whether or not something else should be worked on instead is unhelpful.

None of these things strike me as being particularly insulting. He was probably wrong about how much you read, but it's reasonable to ask for a clarification on how familiar you are with the topic. Especially when your concerns have been addressed several times in this thread. If you weren't satisfied by the counter-arguments why didn't you state something to that affect? Or just reply with a rebuttal instead.

I'm just not seeing what your problem is. Perhaps this is just a case of text failing to convey the proper tone. I heard one tone from xeniorn, you obviously heard another.


That being said I think there is some merit to moving it to the suggestion forums. Though IMO the dwarf mode forums are sort of a catch-all so I don't exactly consider this out of place.

[NW_Kohaku]

Well, if you want to know why it's in the Dwarf Mode forums, it's because that's where Arkenstone put it - and he already had a rubble-related thread in the Suggestions Forums, at that. 

Personally, I don't see a point in worrying about derails or moving threads when they have started to expand - it's the nature of free and complete discussion that the conversation expand into tangential matters, and does nobody favors to restrain a conversation only for the purpose of "staying on topic" when the topic itself benefits from the side discussion. 

And as much as I like the Suggestions Forum more than the Dwarf Mode Forum, this thread sure got more traffic than even the latest "zOMG GAY DWARVES!" thread in Suggestions.  Who knew rubble would be a more controversial topic than urine and homosexuality, while genocide is completely non-controversial?  Ahhh, Bay 12.

In the Suggestions Forums, nobody freaks out about these suggestions, they just talk about ways to make the concept better, if they can think of them.  Here, we get people who panic and try to take apart every portion of the idea.  I think the stress-test is better for those trying to work up an idea, even if the Suggestion Forum crowd provides more constructive criticism.  Of course, I'm more comfortable with confrontational criticisms than most...

Besides, discussing a suggestion-like matter in the Dwarf Mode forum is less of a problem than letting the conversation devolve into a who-insulted-who fight. 

[Arkenstone]

For the record, I put the thread where it is because my intent was to 'catch' a derailment of the FotF thread.  At the time everyone was just discussing the issue in general; there wasn't anything even close to a coherent suggestion and for that matter there still isn't one, as far as I can tell.

[NW_Kohaku]

For the record, I put the thread where it is because my intent was to 'catch' a derailment of the FotF thread.  At the time everyone was just discussing the issue in general; there wasn't anything even close to a coherent suggestion and for that matter there still isn't one, as far as I can tell.

I'd have to ask you what your idea of a coherent suggestion is, then...  I get the impression many threads that are in the Suggestions Forum might not meet those standards.

[Arkenstone]

For the record, I put the thread where it is because my intent was to 'catch' a derailment of the FotF thread.  At the time everyone was just discussing the issue in general; there wasn't anything even close to a coherent suggestion and for that matter there still isn't one, as far as I can tell.

I'd have to ask you what your idea of a coherent suggestion is, then...  I get the impression many threads that are in the Suggestions Forum might not meet those standards.

I wouldn't doubt it the slightest.

[Buttery_Mess]

Now I've seen how minecarts work I'm not sure rubble as I envisaged it would work very well.

[Cellmonk]

Now I've seen how minecarts work I'm not sure rubble as I envisaged it would work very well.

I haven't played it yet (LNP hasn't updated yet). Are mine-carts inefficient currently? do you have any ideas on how rubble might work with carts?

[Buttery_Mess]

Now I've seen how minecarts work I'm not sure rubble as I envisaged it would work very well.

I haven't played it yet (LNP hasn't updated yet). Are mine-carts inefficient currently? do you have any ideas on how rubble might work with carts?

Minecarts can only pick up material from stockpiles. This makes them well suited as elements of production lines, but they are not well suited to gather items from a wide area if those items aren't going to be replaced. Wheelbarrows can operate up and down stairs so they could be used to haul rubble to a stockpile. I had imagined that tracks weren't going to be so reliant on directionality and could be placed throughout the fort, and minecarts could be steered whenever they were needed, and filled wherever they were; that's not the case. They follow predetermined routes based on certain filling conditions.

Rubble could be taken to a stockpile with wheelbarrows, and then carted out with minecarts and dumped, but I can't see how that could be fully compatible with a semi-fluid rubble model. IDK, I guess it could work but just not the way I expected it might.

[NW_Kohaku]

Well, it's pretty similar to how I expected it, although it does need work on becoming more automated. 

One of the things I was talking about was how you would need a small wheelbarrow brigade working on getting rubble from the mining point to the nearest minecart stop. 

There would probably have to be some sort of special way to order rubble spread out so that they don't fill walls and can be easily handled, but you could just leave lots of rubble around to be carried away by the minecarts into the dump zone. 

I was expecting wheelbarrows to be equipped by haulers, however, not wheelbarrows to be attached to individual stockpiles, which just seems very odd.  Maybe Toady will be convinced to change it, however. 

[Waparius]

Rubble could be taken to a stockpile with wheelbarrows, and then carted out with minecarts and dumped, but I can't see how that could be fully compatible with a semi-fluid rubble model. IDK, I guess it could work but just not the way I expected it might.

The thing is that they are pretty fantastic at turning crappy micromanagement into interesting macromanagement, like the Militia interface.

E.G, my current fort, built into the side of a huge mountain, has a garbage chute that could be adapted pretty easily for dumping rubble - I built a tube jutting out the mountainside until it's over the lowest z-level, with a looped minecart track inside rigged to dump the useless remains and unbutcherable corpses that would otherwise clutter up my refuse stockpile. It helps that dwarves can ignore outdoor refuse, of course - maybe if minecart stops come with the option to forbid dumped items in future?

While the chute depends on having a handy mountain, it's easy enough to build a big silo with the cart track winding up the outside - just tell your haulers to push their carts to the top and ride them back down again. When one fills up, build another. Alternately, fill the caverns.

That said, I was surprised how well the quick-fix of "25% less boulders, 400% products" turned out. Suddenly I'm building with blocks!

[dwarfkoala]

Well, i'm going to go out on a limb here and be positive - I really like the idea of being able to dump objects into a pit or something and have it solidify into a wall. i also am impressed by the automation idea proposed by NW_Kotaku.

Well, I also really have not much to add to the rubble idea except I say that an init rubble option is a must have if anything of this decides to go through, as DF is not built for much if not customizability. [SPEED:0] if you're impatient, invaders off if you're a sim person, mod in new creatures, races, workshops, etc. Worldgen alone has a nigh-infinite amount of possibilities that should appeal to anyone who is trying to fun Fun or !!FUN!! in Dwarf fortress.

[Martin]

Well, i'm going to go out on a limb here and be positive - I really like the idea of being able to dump objects into a pit or something and have it solidify into a wall.

That's my favorite idea as well. I'd like to be able to build earthen walls around the perimeter of my fort and level out uneven ground and whatnot. We have ways to remove from the map, but casting obsidian is the only way to properly add to it, and its impossible to alter the surface to add grass/tree growing. You can muddy stone underground, but that doesn't work on the surface.

[rdnwt]

I really like the features that rubble as a game mechanic would bring: real landscaping, earthen / rubble-filled walls, rubble dams, etc.; and I thought I'd throw in my take at an argument for it.

It is true that by its very existence rubble interferes with all underground activities, but that isn't a bad thing. I don't think it's been properly phrased yet (at least in this thread), but the biggest contribution of rubble isn't "difficulty" per se, it's pacing.

The more time-consuming it is to carve underground rooms, the more important outdoor spaces are, especially initially. Early forts would need to rely much more on above ground, outdoor workshops and a wooden hut or two for a dormitory and dining hall.

Eventually, a fort's underground spaces are readied and the outdoor spaces are phased out. But of course, a fort that expands too quickly will spill out to the outside areas, where it is much more vulnerable.

Bearing in mind that all creatures that dig are subject to this pacing, proper sieges -- sappers included -- begin to make sense. Walls can be deconstructed, but rubble has to be dug like soil, and sappers wouldn't have the infrastructure to dig quickly or efficiently, so the dwarves have a fighting chance to intercept them; perhaps they could drop rubble over the walls to bury them in their own tunnels. If siegers can lob projectiles over the walls, it becomes doubly important to balance which activities take place outside so that when a siege comes and interrupts them, the fortress doesn't grind to a halt.

It then becomes all the more satisfying when the fortress is finally fully mature, and more-or-less all of its industries are situated comfortably underground.

This also has benefits when coupled with a similar pacing change to farming, but that's a whole other thing.

In short, a rubble mechanic would definitely change game-play, but I believe it would largely be for the better. That said, helping to emphasize the above ground aspects of DF is something, but it does seem to go hand-in-hand with sappers, and furthermore I haven't offered any specific implementations. And the implementation would indeed need to be unintrusive -- DF is obtuse enough as it is.

[onarum]

Hell, while we are at it why not make it so that the dwarves have to wash all the dishes from the meals? I mean in the real world you can't just eat and have nothing to account for right?

Also how come they don't make their beds after sleeping? it makes no sense since I have to make my bed everyday in here, and how come I don't see them going to the bathroom? in the real world people go to the bathroom, so clearly we have a problem here, and after bathrooms are added they will have to be cleaned of course, since in the real world we can't just leave the bathrooms unattended now can we?

I say there should be a new job for servants which would require it's own set of skills and also the manufacturing of specific cleaning products, after all in the real world washing a toilet with soap just wouldn't be enough, I can't wait to train my legendary dishwasher.

[Askot Bokbondeler]

no way! there is a limit to how deep a game can be and still be fun! that which you propose would totally ruin df, instead toady should make it so df can be played with only two buttons, one to throw elves at incoming goblins and another to eat plump helmets to regain hitpoints. i was thinking about using booze as power ups, but that might make the game too complex