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Author Topic: On Rubble: Treading on Unstable Ground...  (Read 54126 times)

Arkenstone

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Re: On Rubble: Treading on Unstable Ground...
« Reply #210 on: May 10, 2012, 06:02:14 pm »

@NW:
I thought that igneous intrusive rocks took hundreds of thousands of years to cool down and crystallize?  The only stones other than obsidian which I think would be able to form within our timescale are pumice and (maybe) basalt.

According to this source, most rocks should melt at ~5kJ/cm^3.  Doing the math, this means a completely full 2m*2m*3m tile would contain 60 GJ minimum(I tried calculating how long this would take to cool at this point, and was promptly reminded why I'm becoming an Electrical Engineer.)

Anyways, that's a LOT of energy.  Modeling magma as a fixed temperature might not be as unrealistic as you think.

Lastly, a total lack of plate tectonics means the magma shouldn't be pressurized.  Since the world's supported on lots of shiny cyan stilts, the only pressure on magma would come from other magma pipes, and I have no idea how much that would be given the viscosity of magma.  The only force in a suitable position to be causing an eruption would probably come from "down below"...

EDIT:
That's not to say that random/periodic eruptions and some erosion of walls (probably as part of an eruption) wouldn't be awesome.

EDIT 2:
I think I just logically proved that there should be a huge eruption when you crack open the HFS...
« Last Edit: May 10, 2012, 06:13:09 pm by Arkenstone »
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Dwarven economics are still in the experimental stages. The humans have told them that they need to throw a lot of money around to get things going, but every time the dwarves try all they just end up with a bunch of coins lying all over the place.

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Feel free to ask me any questions you have about logic/computing; I'm majoring in the topic.

King Mir

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Re: On Rubble: Treading on Unstable Ground...
« Reply #211 on: May 10, 2012, 06:13:27 pm »

Ingenious intrusive take a long time. Igneous extrusive would take moments, with sufficient cooling. Currently obsidian is the only true igneous extrusive rock in DF, which obviously isn't the case in real life.

There are different kinds of magma, which DF does not model. Some flows fast, some flows really slow. The rate of cooling also varies.

Arkenstone

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Re: On Rubble: Treading on Unstable Ground...
« Reply #212 on: May 10, 2012, 06:20:44 pm »

If I'm not mistaken, what type of stone you get is primarily determined by how fast the magma cools.  If it cools in moments, it's always going to be obsidian.  Cooling out on the ground (i.e., evaporation) produces basalt, I think.  But I have no idea if a full tile of magma would be able to cool quick enough to matter.  A cluster of several full tiles almost certainly wouldn't.
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Quote from: Retro
Dwarven economics are still in the experimental stages. The humans have told them that they need to throw a lot of money around to get things going, but every time the dwarves try all they just end up with a bunch of coins lying all over the place.

The EPIC Dwarven Drinking Song of Many Names

Feel free to ask me any questions you have about logic/computing; I'm majoring in the topic.

Sadrice

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Re: On Rubble: Treading on Unstable Ground...
« Reply #213 on: May 10, 2012, 06:56:56 pm »

Wikipedia has a decent chart.  There are 4 basic chemical types of magma: felsic, intermediate, mafic, and ultramafic.  Felsic tends to have a lot of silicon and aluminum and oxygen and such, is thick, and tends to have a lot of dissolved gases (mostly water), so tends to be explosive (eg Mt St Helens).  Mafic has magnesium and iron and some silicon, is runnier, and is low on dissolved gases so doesn't explode as much (eg Hawaii). Intermediate is, well intermediate.  Ultramafic is weird and has a lot of heavy elements and is somewhat rare.  As magma cools, crystals form and grow larger, but this is a rather slow process.  If it is blasted out into the air, it cools very fast, and no crystals form at all, giving obsidian, a glass, if it's felsic, and a few unusual glasses if it's mafic.  If it is in fine particles, it is volcanic ash.  If it has dissolved gases, it foams and forms pumice if it's felsic or scoria if it's mafic.  If it cools a little more slowly, it forms fine crystals, rhyolite for felsic, andesite for intermediate, basalt for mafic.  Mafic usually forms basalt rather than a glass, though water can cool it quickly enough.  If it's contained underground for a long time, you get larger crystals, forming granite from felsic magma, diorite from intermediate, and gabbro from mafic.
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Martin

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Re: On Rubble: Treading on Unstable Ground...
« Reply #214 on: May 10, 2012, 07:18:23 pm »

Regarding cooling, it's a pretty classic heat transfer problem. Magma below ground is slow to cool because its dissipated some of its heat to the surrounding rock while having that heat replenished from below. The suurounding rock heats to near melting and serves as an insulator.

However, once you start moving the magma away from the heat source and toward a cooler area, and further if you expose it to air where the heated air can be constantly recirculated with cooler air, then the magma cools very quickly. You could maintain it in liquid state by recirculating it - moving the cooling magma back toward the source to reheat before solidifying, but thats nearly impossible to do in practice.

Bottom line is that an accurate modeling of magma would render it unusable as a tool. Forges would become too hot to use instantly, and pumping it would solidify it immediately. We could invent new heat physics and be consistent with that, but trying to be realistic simply destroys that dimension of the game.

/physicist

NW_Kohaku

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Re: On Rubble: Treading on Unstable Ground...
« Reply #215 on: May 10, 2012, 07:46:48 pm »

To continue on with this...

OK, first, basaltic rocks are formed constantly along the ocean's trenches and places like Iceland and the Ring of Fire.  Those are the ones caused by tectonic plates.  Mafic Basalt and Gabbro should form from rocks that are taken pretty much straight out of the magma sea, while felsic stones like granite would form in chambers allowed to cool down over long periods of time. 

Secondly, the Earth's molten core constantly sends up plumes of hot molten magma which are less dense and rise to the "surface" of the mantle, cool down, become more dense, and then sink.  This occasionally results in some magma getting thrust up into the weak points in the Earth's crust and causing pressure to build in magma chambers and erupt even without the tectonic plates being involved.  (Of course, this action is also the cause of the tectonic plates in the first place, so I guess it's not to say that they aren't involved.)

Thirdly, I'm not sure why we're saying that DF's world doesn't have tectonic plates - other than the fact that worldgen is too short to make continental drift not have meaning, is there any reason why not?  We already have volcanoes in-game, so it seems a little strange that we would say there aren't any cases of magma being thrust up to the surface.

Fourth, on the specific case of magma not cooling, we're talking about it NEVER cooling.  As in, a 2/7 magma tile can melt hundreds of metric tons of objects and remain out of contact with the heat of the planet's mantle for as long as your fortress runs (and some people run 50+ year fortresses) without convecting in the least or even gaining more mass.  There is space for additional realism, here. 



As for mafic vs. felsic magma, the "mafic" part refers to Magnesium and Ferric (I.E. Iron) and mafic magma has both of those metals in abundance.  The magma from the core of the Earth has mafic qualities, but if magma gets trapped into magma chambers, then it will gradually start cooling, and the magnesium and iron will solidify first because they have higher melting points, leaving behind the mostly siliceous materials. 

Granite (felsic intrusive) is less dense than basalt, and as such, "floats" on top of magma better, letting it be more thick, and rise above the basalt.  Most continental rock rests on a bed of granite, while the oceans have a much thinner crust of basalt. 

Most volcanoes like in Iceland or Hawaii or in the deep sea trenches have mafic magma that just constantly erupts.  Felsic volcanoes, however, tend to be like Mt. Vesuvius - they take hundreds or thousands of years of constantly building up extra magma and pressure to eventually blast away tons of rock explosively in pyroclastic felsic rock explosions.  Mt. Vesuvius destroyed Pompeii before the people could even react.  You can out-walk an eruption of a Hawaiian volcano. 

The intermediate stones are simply formed by magma that had not cooled off all its iron and magnesium yet, or where a pocket of felsic magma was mixed with a new upshoot of mafic magma from below. 

Ultramafic is extraordinarily rare to occur in the current state of the Earth, but existed in the ancient past before the crust of the planet fully cooled off.  Today, the only real vestiges of ultramafic rock are deep near the mantle of the Earth, or in a few special Kimberlite pipes.  (These are, notably, where most of the world's diamond mines occur.)

To properly model this, magma from the magma sea should be mafic, while magma pipes or volcanoes would potentially be any of the three.  (This might require some sort of additional data put on the magma itself, however, so I'm not sure if Toady would be ready to do this.) 

I have a thread on geologic structures from back when Toady requested more data on geology for the 3d ore veins concept.  If anyone's interested in more, it's a place to look.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2012, 02:43:56 pm by NW_Kohaku »
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Buttery_Mess

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Re: On Rubble: Treading on Unstable Ground...
« Reply #216 on: May 10, 2012, 07:58:07 pm »

I think rubble mounds would be great for surface constructions. If there's one thing that's missing from DF, it's a woeful lack of small, steep hills amidst flat plains on which to build a surface fort. Most such 'hills' are at the top of mountains, which makes it an impractical place to build a surface fort because it's almost impossible to target approaching enemies on steep mountainsides.
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bluea

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Re: On Rubble: Treading on Unstable Ground...
« Reply #217 on: May 10, 2012, 10:45:06 pm »

Doing the math, this means a completely full 2m*2m*3m tile would contain 60 GJ minimum(I tried calculating how long this would take to cool at this point, and was promptly reminded why I'm becoming an Electrical Engineer.)

I'm going to (partially) calculate a sphere with the same volume instead of a block.

2m x 2m x 3m = 12 cubic meters.
Sphere Volume = 4/3 pi r^3

12 = 4/3 pi r^3
9/pi = r^3
r= 1.42 meters.

Sphere Area = 4 pi r^2
SA= 25 square meters.

Magma temperatures vary, I chose 1000C as middling.

1000C = 1273K

http://www.spectralcalc.com/blackbody_calculator/blackbody.php

Emissivity is basically zero-to-one, and looking up a variety of stones gives me around 0.9. Calculating the -actual- emissivity is quite difficult, but 0.9 is quite reasonable. It has a linear affect if you want to fiddle with it.

The other input in this particular calculator is for judging doppler effect shifting. Um, I think we’ll ignore that unless the Dwarven MineCart Railguns get a whoooole lot faster. ;) So, ‘0 m/s’ there.

This gets us a heat loss (in space) of around 134000 W/m^2 at the surface of the sphere, or 3.3 MJ/s for the first second.

You also have to calculate the -reverse-, that is ‘how much heat did it absorb radiatively’? But blackbody radiation goes by the -fourth- power of absolute temperature, so… that ends up being a miserable absorption of only 283*25 = 7kJ.

This still doesn’t mean the glowing sphere cools off in a mere five hours. (60GJ/3.3MJ) But doing the iterative procedure for calculating this properly becomes irritating when you add in conductive effects and it is difficult to express without using Latex. AKA Real Work.

Mostly just showing that ‘separated’ chunks of magma (that is, not connected to the bowels of the earth or any other massive convective heat pump) can cool pretty darn quick. In reality, they cool somewhat like ‘radioactive decay’, where the amount of energy in the square is halved, then halved, then halved…. Approaching the energy of the nearby squares asymptotically.

The pictures here are cool and show just how fast the small blobs cool to the point that they have a solid surface. Or, at least, a surface 'skim' of -very- viscous material.

Which all actually brings up a different point:
Magma shouldn't be -evaporating-, so much as -creating obsidian rubble- :D.
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Arkenstone

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Re: On Rubble: Treading on Unstable Ground...
« Reply #218 on: May 10, 2012, 11:33:03 pm »

Actually, my attempt to calculate cooling through heat transfer to neighboring rock at room temperature got me 1.6 MJ/s IIRC, but I figured that I must've messed up somewhere.  However, it isn't unreasonable at all compared to what you got.  It's weird though; I always thought that conduction was faster than radiation.  Maybe only for metal etc.?
« Last Edit: May 10, 2012, 11:36:59 pm by Arkenstone »
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Quote from: Retro
Dwarven economics are still in the experimental stages. The humans have told them that they need to throw a lot of money around to get things going, but every time the dwarves try all they just end up with a bunch of coins lying all over the place.

The EPIC Dwarven Drinking Song of Many Names

Feel free to ask me any questions you have about logic/computing; I'm majoring in the topic.

Sadrice

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Re: On Rubble: Treading on Unstable Ground...
« Reply #219 on: May 10, 2012, 11:44:11 pm »

Conduction depends on the conductivity of the surrounding material, which is not that great for rock.  Radiation is significantly faster at high temperature.
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Arkenstone

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Re: On Rubble: Treading on Unstable Ground...
« Reply #220 on: May 10, 2012, 11:51:51 pm »

Thirdly, I'm not sure why we're saying that DF's world doesn't have tectonic plates - other than the fact that worldgen is too short to make continental drift not have meaning, is there any reason why not?  We already have volcanoes in-game, so it seems a little strange that we would say there aren't any cases of magma being thrust up to the surface.
I know because plenty of people have gone down there to check.
No tectonic plates, just a bunch of &&&&&&&

Don't forget, this isn't Earth we're talking about.
Actually yes, magic.  The current standing for the world creation relies upon gods and demons, not plate tectonics.  Abridged creation myth:
Demons created a ball of slade and lived there.
Armok (and other gods?) became jealous, and built a world atop the slade ball.
The demons trying to escape causes heat on the SMR, which fuels the magma sea and keeps the planet warm (ie, the core is cold, it's purely demon rage that keeps the world warm).
Over time, the SMR has cracked, and Armok (and other gods?) plugged the holes with adamantine.
Those demons who did escape where hunted down by brave heroes, and the heroes managed to seal the final cracks with the magic of their adamantine blades (upright fun stick).
The zombies that exist in curious structures are actually eternal defenders, trying to keep dwarves away from the sword and ensure the demons never escape.

In other words, dwarves are the bad guys and the world was forged with magic.  Geology be damned.

So, a volcanic eruption occurs when some demon lord decides to vent his frustration <by throwing minions> at the SMR.  And an earthquake happens when they have belching contests.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2012, 11:53:41 pm by Arkenstone »
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Quote from: Retro
Dwarven economics are still in the experimental stages. The humans have told them that they need to throw a lot of money around to get things going, but every time the dwarves try all they just end up with a bunch of coins lying all over the place.

The EPIC Dwarven Drinking Song of Many Names

Feel free to ask me any questions you have about logic/computing; I'm majoring in the topic.

Morpha

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Re: On Rubble: Treading on Unstable Ground...
« Reply #221 on: May 11, 2012, 04:39:16 am »

Urist McLegendaryWeaponSmith Cancels present Artifact: Tripping on rubble.
Urist MclegendaryWeaponSmith has been found dead.
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Quote from: Gerottomo on May 03, 2012, 04:34:11 pm
That should be a new type of project, making a rug design in dwarf fortress (With accurate coloring)
"And so, after many deaths and much sacrifice, someone turned their fortress into a fully functioning self aware carpet that actively sought after sources of fresh blood."

The Giant Bat who decided an axe made a better weapon than claws:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=108229.30

bluea

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Re: On Rubble: Treading on Unstable Ground...
« Reply #222 on: May 11, 2012, 09:20:05 am »

Radiation goes as the fourth power of absolute temperature.

Conduction and convection are -normally- much, much larger portions of the heat transfer. But... when things get -hot-, radiation dominates. (Ok, -crushes- the other kids).

Rock does suck at conduction. And convection (relatively). But a ball of aluminum, copper or gold would be dumping heat at pretty much the same speed (at least initially) - and most all by radiation. (Al, Cu, Au some of the top heat conductors).

A sphere of metal would end up -completely- cooling much faster than the ball of rock. But those first few seconds, the radiative dumping is going to be the only real game in town.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: On Rubble: Treading on Unstable Ground...
« Reply #223 on: May 11, 2012, 09:21:04 am »

To say that it isn't Earth and therefore geology doesn't have to be realistic would have more weight if basically everything else about geology wasn't already being faithfully represented, excepting only the thickness of the planet's crust. 

Besides, we already have volcanoes - they just don't erupt.  Saying that volcanoes shouldn't exist without tectonic plates when volcanoes already exist would either imply that Toady disagrees with you, or that we do, in fact, have tectonic plates that simply aren't being modeled yet. 

Further, game geology has changed in the past.  2d versions were linear stretches, presumably "deeper" into the earth as you went to "dig too deep", with underground rivers and magma rivers.  .27 and .28 versions had solid layers down to the arbitrary stopping point, with only the possibility of a HFS.  It's only .31 and up that have had HFS at the bottom every time as a guaranteed "center of the earth" (although there still are glowing pits leading further down...) and there is no guarantee they won't change further. 

Toady in the past talked about adding alternate dimensions/planes of reality, and people have been speculating that HFS is just an alternate plane that happens to have a 1:1 correlation to the regular world through cotton candy portals. 
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Personally, I like [DF] because after climbing the damned learning cliff, I'm too elitist to consider not liking it.
"And no Frankenstein-esque body part stitching?"
"Not yet"

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Arkenstone

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Re: On Rubble: Treading on Unstable Ground...
« Reply #224 on: May 11, 2012, 01:41:32 pm »

I'm not saying that volcanoes shouldn't exist without tectonic plates.  I'm trying to explain why they do in the DF world as it currently stands.

I'm approaching this more from the point of consistency with what we know of the game world more than what we know of the real world.  In the game world, we have a uniform crust with expansive caverns spanning throughout.  Under that, we have the magma sea and the SMR, interlaced with adamantine pipes that have foundations on slade.  We also have no evidence at all of curvature.

Given what we know (not including real-world geology) the most likely source of heat maintaining the SMR is demon rage.  I'm calling this the "Infernal Theory" of DF geology.  For now my theory is fully consistent with observed (in-game) facts, but I am fully aware that an update (analogous to new discoveries) may invalidate it.  If that happens, I will gladly update or discard them.

I'm just speculating on what could cause volcanoes, earthquakes etc. based on my current theory, and making predictions based on it.
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Quote from: Retro
Dwarven economics are still in the experimental stages. The humans have told them that they need to throw a lot of money around to get things going, but every time the dwarves try all they just end up with a bunch of coins lying all over the place.

The EPIC Dwarven Drinking Song of Many Names

Feel free to ask me any questions you have about logic/computing; I'm majoring in the topic.
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