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[SealyStar]

Actually, Goblinese always looked like Lojban or Esperanto to me.

Yeah. Not to mention that silly "International Auxiliary Languages" like those are acceptable targets, because they're just languages without any specific ethnicity [trollface].

[Nonsequitorian]

Was not expecting people to not want articles. Hm. I think we nearly all agree on prefix for tenses and suffixes for person and number.

I've never liked the idea of formal-colloq. speech differences because when you're speaking with friends, you don't just use a colloq. verb ending, but also an entirely different sentence structure.

Let's say you are talking to your boss, Urist Daggersharp at a dinner.
"Would you mind passing the salt, Mr. Daggersharp?"

Now Urist is your friend, not your boss:
"Yo, Urine can I have the salt?"

The only word that is the same is the direct object, the salt. I know most people don't always talk like this to their friends, but it happens enough that there needn't be a formal version separate from the word "you," but instead a whole array of informal versions that can be used whenever one pleases, because saying "you" to your friends all the time sounds repetitive.

This being the case in english, I suggest that there is one word for you that is both formal (but used non-formally), and many variations to signify non-formal speech. Of course, in a fortress, a peasant can go up to the leader and yell or cry on his shoulder, or even throw things. I don't think dwarves are formal ever.

[NW_Kohaku]

For the verb conjugation, I'd like a -combination- of prefix and suffix.


English uses multi-word verbs for some tenses: "He jumps. He will jump. He will be jumping. He has jumped." Make 'will',  'be', and 'has' prefixes. (And, basically, all of the 'to be' and 'to have' bits) But do -all- of the 'present tense' conjugations by manipulating the -suffix-.

The problem I have with this is it's going to make the language harder to learn if you put these sorts of conjugation rules in. 

I don't see a reason we need to make "will jump" different from "will be jumping", when it adds another layer of conjugation rules and necessary prefixes/suffixes/stand-alone words in order to make them happen. 

As much as I'm sure this is an exercise to satisfy the inner linguists of some members of this forum, making the language something a layman can learn more easily than a real second language should be a goal, here. 

[Jeoshua]

Yeah. Not to mention that silly "International Auxiliary Languages" like those are acceptable targets, because they're just languages without any specific ethnicity [trollface].

Plus most of them just sound ugly.  Especially Lojban.  Chinese + Latin + Proto-Indo-European = BLECK.

[Jeoshua]

Was not expecting people to not want articles.

I absolutely want articles, I just don't talk about them because it requires way less explanation and planning, and is generally less interesting.  If anything, however, we need them a bit more than any of the other things thus far discusses.

Of course, in a fortress, a peasant can go up to the leader and yell or cry on his shoulder, or even throw things. I don't think dwarves are formal ever.

I would beg to differ here.  I agree that Dwarves probably wouldn't make much of a distinction, between formal and informal speech, but that doesn't mean they're not formal.  It probably wouldn't be with a separate set of words, but while they're crying on their leader's shoulder, they're probably calling them "Sir" and apologizing profusely for being undwarvenly.

Dwarven informality would more likely come from the words chosen.  Instead of calling an elven diplomat "Good-sir Elf" once they piss them off, they'd probablly call them "Tree-Lover"

[Nonsequitorian]

I spose you're right that they are formal, but they surely aren't being very kind.

I wanted articles too, I think it will get way too confusing without articles and without cases. Either I say we have cases (latin AND russian, neither of which have articles for the and a), have articles (english) or have cases on articles (german). The only reason Russian works is because of it's specific use of cases and sentence structure, and even then you have words for some and no and one, etc. To not have articles and not have cases is going to complicate things. I mean, it's POSSIBLE to have no cases and no articles, but there's a strong correlation between them in language.

Verbs so far:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

1s: -mi  1p: -mos
2s: -si  2p: -sos
3s: -ti  3p: -tos
These are the endings for verbs. Prefixes decide tenses. Ni/Nim is for past, Kur/Kr is for future. Nim and Kr are before vowels, because Kurabla is longer than Krabla, and Nimable is easier to say that Niabla. Kurbla and Nibla sound better than Krbla an Nimbla/ are shorter.

Just makin thing's logical. If Ni and Kur sound too ugly, we should vote on another word. Po will be a universal "more" prefix, and Be could be a universal "less" prefix.

This means that, if we assume Bolo is "to tie," and we are to do every tense in the 1s, then it will look like this:
Bolomi - I tie
Kurbolomi - I will tie
Benibolomi - I was tying (because be is less and ni is past, so "less past.")
Nibolomi - I tied
Ponibolomi - I had tied (because po is more and ni is past, so "more past.")
Kurnibolomi - I will have tied (because kur is future, ni is past, so "future past.")

We need passive voice. After we have passive, we will have an entire indicative mood. How are we going to deal with subjunctive?

[Chagen46]

Oh my god, the amount of people here who have bo cknception if linguistics and are making entieely unfounded and just plain idiotic claims about language here are making the inner conlanger/linguist in me cry.

And this lang is turning out to be nothing more than a relex of English.

[Chagen46]

I wanted articles too, I think it will get way too confusing without articles and without cases. Either I say we have cases (latin AND russian, neither of which have articles for the and a), have articles (english) or have cases on articles (german). The only reason Russian works is because of it's specific use of cases and sentence structure, and even then you have words for some and no and one, etc. To not have articles and not have cases is going to complicate things. I mean, it's POSSIBLE to have no cases and no articles, but there's a strong correlation between them in language.

Bullshit. Articles and case have NOTHING to do with each other at all. A huge majority of languages get by without them.

[NW_Kohaku]

Oh my god, the amount of people here who have bo cknception if linguistics and are making entieely unfounded and just plain idiotic claims about language here are making the inner conlanger/linguist in me cry.

And this lang is turning out to be nothing more than a relex of English.

Could you maybe rephrase that into something more specific and actionable? 

I'm certainly no linguist, I will admit, but I don't claim to be, either.  So if you could just try working from where we should go, rather than just saying everything is wrong, it would be more useful.

[Chagen46]

I'd have to figure out WHERE to start first, and I'm not a pro at conlanging though I study linguistics for fun.

Anyway, I do have one thing to add:

http://www.zompist.com/kit.html

Reading this might help you guys. The LCK ain't a bible by any means, but it's a start.

[Detoxicated]

Maybe the children should get a completely own system of speech and language, similar to cultures where females and males have different languages. I feel this would add to dwarf fortress as it would explain why the dwarves do such cruel things to their kids (they just don't understand that they are screaming in pain not in joy )

[Nonsequitorian]

I wanted articles too, I think it will get way too confusing without articles and without cases. Either I say we have cases (latin AND russian, neither of which have articles for the and a), have articles (english) or have cases on articles (german). The only reason Russian works is because of it's specific use of cases and sentence structure, and even then you have words for some and no and one, etc. To not have articles and not have cases is going to complicate things. I mean, it's POSSIBLE to have no cases and no articles, but there's a strong correlation between them in language.

Bullshit. Articles and case have NOTHING to do with each other at all. A huge majority of languages get by without them.

First: someone with at least minimal care for linguistics would proof read his anger before he posts it. Your spelling of conception is impossible.

Second:

Latin - No articles, Has cases
Russian - No articles, Has cases
English - No cases, Has articles
French - No cases, Has articles
Spanish - No cases, Has articles
Esperanto - No cases, Has articles
Finnish - No articles, Has cases
Lithuanian - No articles, Has cases
Arabic - No cases (in modern arabic), Has articles

The list goes on and on and on and on. I'm not saying I'm right, but at least I'm not going to be an asshole. I'm not saying I'm a linguist, either, just that I've a large language background and have done a bit of studying. Frankly it's a very immature thing to come into a place and just start ranting about how stupid everyone else is, it's about the same level as "that's what she said" or "first." If you have nothing to contribute, then go back to drawing penises on sleeping people's faces, it wont bother us. Maybe there isn't any correlation between cases and articles at all, and that merely out of coincidence a whole lot of languages either have articles or they have cases. German has both cases and articles, so what? I'm going to go cry in the corner now because some arrogant, self righteous schoolboy twat thinks I'm wrong?

And if I am wrong, what reason is that to explode into a furious rage? What really is going to happen?

A relexification of english is precisely what I'm trying to avoid also. You blame me for noticing a pattern that has no real reason, and then you blame me for wanting what you want? Now that's just plain stupid! That is precisely as interpreting a painting in a different way, then you getting furious because I, like you, think it is pretty.

Now back on topic.

Maybe the children should get a completely own system of speech and language, similar to cultures where females and males have different languages. I feel this would add to dwarf fortress as it would explain why the dwarves do such cruel things to their kids (they just don't understand that they are screaming in pain not in joy )

I've never heard of any such culture, how would pairs communicate? I don't really like the idea, because dwarves that grow up will still know the language they knew as a kid. I just find it funny that that would happen. It may make sense to have slang for children, but still that seems like a bit of work.

While the subject of verbs is still floating among slues of retorts about a whole lot of holier-than-thou, how about we go with the Russian passive voice and add a suffix that means "self" on the end. Consider this:

я считаю - I consider
я считаюсь - I am considered
я считаю себя - I consider myself

The first is active, the second is passive, the third just sounds passive but means something slightly different. I believe that this would work wonderfully in this language.

[Detoxicated]

Well I can't seem to find a link, but they also have a third language for all, but since society is seperated, they speak to their own gender with the right language, while using the third language for inter-gender conversations. I just brought it up, because we do not need to base dwarven language at all on european languages.

I could see them having twenty different words for soil and rock, as they indulge into it more often than humans. (This could also imply Elves having more words for one kind of tree, as they classify them more specifically)

All in all interesting attempt here, but I fear this language will be too european centered, which is sad as I feel that dwarves aren't from europe at all, and should therefore speak an own, unique native tongue.

[SealyStar]

First: someone with at least minimal care for linguistics would proof read his anger before he posts it. Your spelling of conception is impossible.

No, he obviously mean "bo cknception if linguistics". He's so good at this shit that he's inventing new languages as we speak!

Latin - No articles, Has cases
Russian - No articles, Has cases
English - No cases, Has articles
French - No cases, Has articles
Spanish - No cases, Has articles
Esperanto - No cases, Has articles
Finnish - No articles, Has cases
Lithuanian - No articles, Has cases
Arabic - No cases (in modern arabic), Has articles

You can't reduce "has cases" to a binary. Esperanto, for example, has a direct-object form for all nouns, by adding an "n". English only has the nominative and genitive, but they're still something. And pretty much every language there still has cases for personal pronouns.

And you can't forget German. Articles and cases are not mutually exclusive, as your list would suggest. German not only has both, but the noun usually depends on the article for its case.

Not trying to be too nitpicky, otherwise it's a good list.

While the subject of verbs is still floating among slues of retorts about a whole lot of holier-than-thou, how about we go with the Russian passive voice and add a suffix that means "self" on the end. Consider this:

я считаю - I consider
я считаюсь - I am considered
я считаю себя - I consider myself

The first is active, the second is passive, the third just sounds passive but means something slightly different. I believe that this would work wonderfully in this language.

That third voice seems close to the middle voice. It's pretty rare in modern languages. I don't think Russian has a proper middle voice, and uses suffixes/separate words, like себя (a shortened form of the first-person reflexive, I believe). But it's the same concept of acting upon oneself, whereas the active refers to acting upon something else (in languages with a middle voice), and the passive to being acted upon.

[Nonsequitorian]

I specifically let out German because it's a black sheep, and no cases and articles aren't black or white, as Russian has multiple partitive articles which we just leave out as a bunch of words. One and a half, in english, is one and a half. I russian, however, it's just полтора. There's more than a few of these articles for a language well known for not having articles. I shouldn't even have put in Esperanto, it too is a made up language.

I agree that cases and articles aren't exclusive, not in any way are they so, I just noticed a pattern and thought that there may be a couple thousand years of something behind it, and that maybe we should follow it.

Huh, middle voice. I haven't heard that before.