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[Feco]

Hey everyone!  I don't post a whole lot, but I noticed there are a few threads about active MUDs (hellMOO, etc.), and that it's been ~2 years since my personal favorite, Armageddon MUD, has been talked about.  Thread reached about 20 pages then, and I thought it might be nice to bring back up, see if anyone plays, and introduce a few people.



Armageddon MUD is heavily inspired by the D&D Dark Sun setting, and is set in a place called Zalanthas, a planet turned into a vast, harsh desert by ancient magic called defiling, as such, magick (both elementalism and sorcerery) is illegal in most places, and feared and hated in all.  The whole world is in oppressed state, ruled by one of two sorcerer-kings, under the thumb of a local despot, or held by the purse by one of the three major Merchant Houses.  There are only two major city-states, Allanak, and Tuluk, and two other major outposts, Luir's, which straddles the border of the northern and southern parts of the known, and Red Storm, which sits on the shore of the Sea of Silt (which is sailable ingame, but will likely lead to your death!).  The rest of the world (known and unknown) is desert, scrub, mountain, waste, etc., and is dotted sparsely by small outposts, ruins (fun to find IG, because of their rarity), xenophobic tribal elves, tribal humans, nasty brutal Gith, and other huge horrifying creatures of different types (not even a fraction are listen in the bestiary on the website).

The majority of PCs are referred to OOCly as "mundane," as the setting is low-magic in a way.  There exists 7 elementalist classes, 1 sorcerous class, and a psionic user class, but all are regulated via a Karma system (points awarded for roleplay, responsible use of power, interaction with staff, etc.), and a special application system.  There are 6 normal classes, 24 sub-classes, and a slew of "extended sub-classes" which are currently being worked on and implemented.  There are 7 playable humanoid races (some restricted by Karma or Special App), the fantasy types differing greatly from what one normally expects (dwarves have no hair, elves come from a culture of tribal sneakiness, etc.)  Normal character applications go through an approval process, which usually only takes a few hours.  All is carried out in game, or through the really easy to use request tool.

A big draw to the game is it's permadeath, which in conjunction with the incredibly harsh and difficult world, makes the entire game an immersive, on-edge experience.  You could get eaten by a Mekillot, starve to death in the waste, get gutted by a pick-pocket in Allanak's ghetto called The 'Rinth, have your head chopped off by a Templar for blaspheming the Highlord, fall off the Shield Wall, drown in the Sea of Silt, or any other combination of nasty ways to go.  One of the official taglines is "Murder.  Corruption.  Betrayal.," so you know it's gonna be good.

There are a few maps of the known world on the website, but this isn't the extent of the game.  The gameworld has somewhere near 30,000 rooms at last count.  Ingame secrets are closely kept, and spreading specific information is actually forbidden in the rules.  The game is a roleplay-enforced MUD; IC and OOC information are meant to be kept separate.

There is a lot of documentation for certain areas, Houses, races, etc. that really helps you flesh out the world.  It's a lot of fun just to read the shit in your off time.

If anyone is interested:

http://www.armageddon.org/
Armageddon runs at armageddon.org 4050.

I suggest MUSHclient for a MUDclient, it's awesome.  It works really well under WINE too.

http://www.gammon.com.au/downloads/dlmushclient.htm

If you decide to play, and have any questions, we also have helpers who'll answer you.  There's a button at the bottom of the main page that says "Live Chat!", and underneath says "Talk to a Helper!"  They're a great resource.


Non-systematically chosen Dark Sun art of some sort.

[Carrion]

I apped for a character over a year ago but the text editor screwed me up and I lost interest, even though the admin was really nice and I like what the MUD has to offer.  Ever since then, I've entertained the idea of trying again--to the point of drafting a character--but never committing. 

The main thing which keeps me from getting involved is that I typically get bored or annoyed by multiplayer anything.  The other, lesser hindrance is that I've never played a MUD or anything along that lines.

What is the turnover for major PCs?  Are there loads of people rolling alternates?  Are factions consistent with their membership or are people dying too rapidly for there to be any long-ish meaningful interactions?  How much grind is there?

[Girlinhat]

Very well posted, at least you didn't just post a link to the site and say "google it" like so many other threads tend to do...  Sounds awesome, think I'll wait for more info to surface in this thread.

[GlyphGryph]

This has to be, like, the fifth or sixth thread about this, no?

But it's a pretty good game, and this is probably the nicest looking one yet, so good job!

[lordcooper]

I apped for a character over a year ago but the text editor screwed me up and I lost interest, even though the admin was really nice and I like what the MUD has to offer.  Ever since then, I've entertained the idea of trying again--to the point of drafting a character--but never committing. 

The main thing which keeps me from getting involved is that I typically get bored or annoyed by multiplayer anything.  The other, lesser hindrance is that I've never played a MUD or anything along that lines.

What is the turnover for major PCs?  Are there loads of people rolling alternates?  Are factions consistent with their membership or are people dying too rapidly for there to be any long-ish meaningful interactions?  How much grind is there?

Armageddon was my first MUD too, and the only one I've ever stuck with for any significant length of time.  It might be worth joining the T'zai Byn (a rough mercenary group) with your first character.  They're probably the most newbie friendly of all the clans and are a pretty good place to learn the ropes.  I've had characters last anything from three (ridiculously epic) hours to just over six months.  Your life expectancy will be greatly increased of you join a clan and stay within the city walls to begin with.  Grinding is actively discouraged.  There are coded limitations on how quickly skills can increase and a strong emphasis on playing characters rather than mere walking skill stats.

Very well posted, at least you didn't just post a link to the site and say "google it" like so many other threads tend to do...  Sounds awesome, think I'll wait for more info to surface in this thread.

Is there anything specific you'd like to know about?

[Feco]

I apped for a character over a year ago but the text editor screwed me up and I lost interest, even though the admin was really nice and I like what the MUD has to offer.  Ever since then, I've entertained the idea of trying again--to the point of drafting a character--but never committing. 

The main thing which keeps me from getting involved is that I typically get bored or annoyed by multiplayer anything.  The other, lesser hindrance is that I've never played a MUD or anything along that lines.

What is the turnover for major PCs?  Are there loads of people rolling alternates?  Are factions consistent with their membership or are people dying too rapidly for there to be any long-ish meaningful interactions?  How much grind is there?

What is the turnover for major PCs?

There aren't any published rates, but if it helps, my shortest-lived character was 1-hour of play (Newbies get a respawn if they die within that time, but if you have Karma, you don't), and my longest lived was 685 hours of play (this is all logged in time).  All my other characters have gotten between 24hours logged in, and some 12 days logged in.  As you can imagine, even 1 day logged in is gonna be a considerable amount of time in the real world, unless you play like a maniac.  It's gonna vary on the individual and the character type.  I know there are some PCs with 200+ days PLAYED (thats login time, not RL days passed).

The game is harsh as hell, and like DF, dying is part of the fun.  You don't die as much as Adventure Mode, though, especially when your with a clan.  The fear of death crops up more often than actual death (unless you go about LOOKING to get killed.  It isn't hard if you go looking.)

Death isn't always a shitty end, or the end, either.  I've had a handfull of PCs I've requested be "stored" (permanently), and many deaths I was satisfied with as a fitting end.

Are there loads of people rolling alternates?

Alternative accounts are not allowed, and they're likely jumping through hoops to avoid detection if they are.

Are factions consistent with their membership or are people dying too rapidly for there to be any long-ish meaningful interactions?

Some clans, like the T'Zai byn, are designed for a quick turnover.  It's a high-risk, high-thrill clan which usually trains people for an IG year (so thats 12 weeks IRL), and exposes them to lots of crazy danger.  The Sergeant of your crew, however, is usually a very experienced character who isn't going to get offed so easily.

What you'll generally see in clans and factions are a handfull of people who live long turn, and a steady flow of people coming in and out, either by death or choice.  Meaningful interaction is not difficult to come by.  Honestly, I've only been in one clan that wasn't completely consistent, and that's just because it exists in an area that's incredibly difficult to survive in, even compared to the rest of the world.

How much grind is there?

Grinding doesn't work, so none.  We aren't supposed to discuss the details and mechanics of the game system, but put simply someone learns through failure.  When you fail to do something, you have a chance to learn something in that skill (increase it.)  Failing over and over doesn't do you any good, so simply playing as if you were a normal person doing what they do will get you where you need to go.  You'll actually skill up to a competent level rather quickly, and then mastery will come with time.

the text editor screwed me up

I'll admit the editor is a bitch if you're not used to it.  If you open notepad, and stretch notepad to fit the width of the text scroll in your client, you can actually type it out with the appropriate line breaks, and then copy and paste the whole thing at once.  Works perfect.  Can picture it up for instructions if you like.

Very well posted, at least you didn't just post a link to the site and say "google it" like so many other threads tend to do...  Sounds awesome, think I'll wait for more info to surface in this thread.

Any specific questions?  I've played a variety of roles over the past couple years, and as long as it isn't asking about the actual bare-bones mechanics of the game, or sensitive IC info, I can answer.

This has to be, like, the fifth or sixth thread about this, no?

But it's a pretty good game, and this is probably the nicest looking one yet, so good job!

Ah, I tried a search and could only find one!  Thanks though!

[Carrion]

Thanks for answering.  I am glad about all of your answers, most especially the anti-grind hard coded limit to skill growth.

I like harsh, unforgiving game-play, so I don't mind that my characters will die more frequently than I may wish them to.  It keeps the weak of heart at bay... 

A couple more questions.  What is the estimated average and peak user traffic (when are the busy times?  What timezone?).  Is there a quest system which players use to gain exp, which permits and encourages frequent quest repetition?  My most recent foray into MMOs was on a NWN PW server and the quest-abuse, even in role-play enforced servers is grating and breaks immersion for me.  Lastly, because I am unfamiliar with the MUD format, is there anywhere I can go which describes or demonstrates the mechanics of how game-play operates (like movement from place to place... is it in real-time? Combat... is it turn-based and how does it mesh with non-combat?  ie. if someone were to walk past a person being mugged...  I just really don't have a good idea of how MUDs work, especially Armageddon)

[Muz]

Ah, good old Arm. I've played this a while back then, but it's way too much of a time sink. Otherwise, I could say it's one of the best games in the world - nothing quite immerses you as well.

Also, the game has gone through some malaise in the last few years as they split focus between Arm and Arm 2. Staff-player interaction has gone down quite a bit, but it's a bit of a taboo topic there.

like DF, dying is part of the fun.

Not quite true. Dying sucks in this game. Not like DF, where you build up a fortress just to see it gloriously torn down or get your char name in history in Adventure mode.

It's the end, full stop, and you're not even allowed to ask what happened after that, you lose all your friends, have to go through the applications process, etc. I highly suggest you try not to die. But it's similar to a lot of roguelikes, in that it's one of the things that makes these kinds of games fun.

But I'm serious when I say stay alive. The game starts becoming fun after you've been alive for several hours and start to know people and get a character who doesn't break easily.

Also, dying is the ultimate anti-grind. In most MMOs/MUDs, you have a long grind, because people are trying to measure how far ahead you can get ahead of others. If you simply stay alive in Arm, you will naturally have a better character.

What is the estimated average and peak user traffic (when are the busy times?  What timezone?).

Uh, I can't recall the exact hours, but around US night. This is another thing with Arm - peak hours and non-peak are very different. At peak hours you'll see people everywhere, at non-peak, there may only be only one per city. Probably one of the major reasons I stopped, because as a non-peak player, you can't really meet people. But non-peak is great if you play burglars, assassins, rinthers, magickers.

Is there a quest system which players use to gain exp, which permits and encourages frequent quest repetition?  My most recent foray into MMOs was on a NWN PW server and the quest-abuse, even in role-play enforced servers is grating and breaks immersion for me.

No quest system. Act like you do IRL. Middle management (sergeants, templars, guild house leaders) are often controlled by very good players and they'll try to give you interesting things to do; natural quests. The game culture tries to get even newbies to merge in well with everyone else, so everyone is usually helpful OOC as much as they try to kill you IC.

Almost every character has a fairly unique skillset. And even low level characters (aside from warriors/gickers) are incredibly useful in that they're the only people who can do certain things. Or willing to do certain things.

Lastly, because I am unfamiliar with the MUD format, is there anywhere I can go which describes or demonstrates the mechanics of how game-play operates (like movement from place to place... is it in real-time? Combat... is it turn-based and how does it mesh with non-combat?  ie. if someone were to walk past a person being mugged...  I just really don't have a good idea of how MUDs work, especially Armageddon

One of the bigger downsides of Armageddon. There is the manual, but if you ask, the most common phrase is "Find out IC". Very taboo to even try and figure out combat mechanics. It just goes that you just follow what's logical, and the combat engine is designed to be completely logical. There's no DPS, etc.

If you want to figure it out in game, favorite advice is often to try and join the Tzai Byn. They're very newbie friendly and usually try to help you out with that.

[GlyphGryph]

I really hated the "Find out IC" as the answer to EVERYTHING bullshit.

As someone who supposedly grew up in the world, it was literally impossible for me to get into character for that reason alone. I never felt like I knew who I was, because even after a dozen hours sunk into the game I didn't feel like I knew where I was from. They say to do what your character would do, but having to ask about every stupid little thing your character would know was pretty immersion breaking for me.

So the key to enjoying the game, in my opinion, is to NOT play a deep, complex character tied to the world - at first, anyways. Play a stupid throwaway anyguy of some sort, and then go exploring, and learn the sorts of things you'll need to know to play a decent character. And start as a generic race in one of the standard locations. First character is literally the "figure out what's going on character".

[Carrion]

Also, the game has gone through some malaise in the last few years as they split focus between Arm and Arm 2. Staff-player interaction has gone down quite a bit, but it's a bit of a taboo topic there.

Arm 2?  Care to elaborate?

Also, to what extent should someone expect interaction with a staff member?  Do they act as a DM of sort, or is it more obscured than that?

One of the bigger downsides of Armageddon. There is the manual, but if you ask, the most common phrase is "Find out IC". Very taboo to even try and figure out combat mechanics. It just goes that you just follow what's logical, and the combat engine is designed to be completely logical. There's no DPS, etc.

The thing is, I don't want to waste my time drafting a character, figuring everything out along the way and find that there is something in which completely turns me off (read: fast travel or some similar shit).  I don't care about the inner-workings of how damage is dealt or anything like that.  My question is more about MUDs MOOs, whatever in general, and how Armageddon relates to the other systems.  Like I said, I have no concept of how everything works in these types of games.  I mean, I understand that you may not want to talk about it, but I don't really have the will to dive into something unless I feel like it's going to meet certain standards; forgive me if asking about such things is taboo.  There is a pretty hefty amount of effort that goes into making even a throwaway character which is why I don't really want to commit to doing so without feeling confident that it won't be a waste of time.

Even say, a link to a video of a similar MUD or some-such would be great.  Anything that will show what happens with a character when moving, exploring, getting attacked, etc. would be fantastic.

[lordcooper]

This is gonna be a massive post.

What is the estimated average and peak user traffic (when are the busy times?  What timezone?).

Peak times are generally afternoon through evening EST.  The amount of people logged in generally varies from 60-80 at peak times to what seems like an average of 5-10 at the slowest times that I have personally played (I'm in GMT timezone).  This has resulted in more than a few incredibly late nights

I generally try and play peak whenever possible, but it can be nice to to log in off peak at times.  The people you run into are going to be a lot more eager to engage in extended RP sessions, and it also gives you a little more space for solo RP and crafting, if that's your thing.

Is there a quest system which players use to gain exp, which permits and encourages frequent quest repetition?  My most recent foray into MMOs was on a NWN PW server and the quest-abuse, even in role-play enforced servers is grating and breaks immersion for me.

There is no quest system or EXP!  Skills increase through failed use and characters do not have levels.  The closest thing to a 'quest' would likely  be taking on jobs from the Templarate, Nobility or Merchant Houses.  Armageddon has a really strong emphasis on being player driven, with a minimum of interference from staff.  There are also several merchant NPCs throughout the major population centres that will buy certain goods from you (dung, salt, cotton etc), but you will never find NPCs asking you to bring back 10 wolf toes for 150 XP and a shiny dagger.

Lastly, because I am unfamiliar with the MUD format, is there anywhere I can go which describes or demonstrates the mechanics of how game-play operates (like movement from place to place... is it in real-time? Combat... is it turn-based and how does it mesh with non-combat?  ie. if someone were to walk past a person being mugged...  I just really don't have a good idea of how MUDs work, especially Armageddon)

The entire game is real-time.  The gameworld is probably best imagined as a grid, with each room being a square on that grid.  You can move by typing n/e/s/w.  This is pretty much instant in cities, but there is a slight coded delay in the wilderness to represent the greater distance being travelled.  Combat takes place in realtime and is visible to anyone in the same room as you.  You basically type 'kill [person/thing]' to initiate combat.  Individual strikes/dodges happen automatically and you have the ability to emote, talk, kick, disarm them, flee etc at will.  There's a pretty neat log of a failed mugging here.  There's no combat involved, but it might give you an idea of how things can go down in Zalanthas.

I'd also highly recommend you read through Mansa's awesome newbie guide over here.  That should explain a lot of the mechanics far better than I can

I really hated the "Find out IC" as the answer to EVERYTHING bullshit.

As someone who supposedly grew up in the world, it was literally impossible for me to get into character for that reason alone. I never felt like I knew who I was, because even after a dozen hours sunk into the game I didn't feel like I knew where I was from. They say to do what your character would do, but having to ask about every stupid little thing your character would know was pretty immersion breaking for me.

So the key to enjoying the game, in my opinion, is to NOT play a deep, complex character tied to the world - at first, anyways. Play a stupid throwaway anyguy of some sort, and then go exploring, and learn the sorts of things you'll need to know to play a decent character. And start as a generic race in one of the standard locations. First character is literally the "figure out what's going on character".

I'm less than enamoured with the whole 'Find out IC' thing myself.  I fully support it as far as mechanics go though.  This really isn't the kind of game that encourages players to focus on 'builds' and powergaming.  There is an incredible amount of documentation available on the game's website that should explain a lot of the gameworld and it's culture.  I'd be more than happy to help you find specific information or help clarify anything for you.  Just let me know if there are any particular areas you need help with.  That offer is open to anyone.

Arm 2?  Care to elaborate?

Some of the staff are currently working on a sequel to Armageddon.  Apparently (this was before my time) there was an issue with WotC about Arm being influenced by DarkSun, so the sequel will lack many of these references to it.  It is likely to be quite a while (several years) before Armageddon 2 is launched and AFAIK the staff working on Arm2 are different to those running Armageddon.

Also, to what extent should someone expect interaction with a staff member?  Do they act as a DM of sort, or is it more obscured than that?

I've had a fair amount of interaction with staff members, although I have often only realised it after the fact.  Staff are generally forbidden from taking any action intended to flat out kill a character but they will make sure that the world reacts appropriately to your actions, so don't go taunting NPC templars or trespassing on elven territory unless you're willing to face the consequences.  There is a 'wish' command that allows you to send messages to all online staff if you need help ingame or would like some interaction with them.  It's generally best be as specific as possible about what you're requesting.  Two instances that jump to mind are being hunted down by a staff animated gith (think tribal goblin thingy) when I spent a few days out in the desert and having my character's mount nudge her as she lay dying.  Staff animations are often subtle and aim to help flesh the world out in lots of little ways.  Sending in regular reports of what you're character has been up to help staff to to work alongside you and maybe help/hinder your goals, although it isn't compulsory by any means.

The thing is, I don't want to waste my time drafting a character, figuring everything out along the way and find that there is something in which completely turns me off (read: fast travel or some similar shit).  I don't care about the inner-workings of how damage is dealt or anything like that.  My question is more about MUDs MOOs, whatever in general, and how Armageddon relates to the other systems.  Like I said, I have no concept of how everything works in these types of games.  I mean, I understand that you may not want to talk about it, but I don't really have the will to dive into something unless I feel like it's going to meet certain standards; forgive me if asking about such things is taboo.  There is a pretty hefty amount of effort that goes into making even a throwaway character which is why I don't really want to commit to doing so without feeling confident that it won't be a waste of time.

That is definitely understandable.  I can assure you that there aren't any fast travel or other 'gamey' systems that I've come across yet.  I'm not really sure how to demonstrate the way MUDs work, but I could probably dig out some of my own logs tonight to provide you with a few examples of roleplay, combat and any other specific situations you might be interested in.  Let me know if you'd find that helpful.

It might help to think of it as being similar to one of those old text based adventure games, but with lots of other players running around in there with you.  The interaction makes the game as much as the systems do IMO.

[Feco]

Also, the game has gone through some malaise in the last few years as they split focus between Arm and Arm 2. Staff-player interaction has gone down quite a bit, but it's a bit of a taboo topic there.

like DF, dying is part of the fun.

Not quite true. Dying sucks in this game. Not like DF, where you build up a fortress just to see it gloriously torn down or get your char name in history in Adventure mode.

I've never had an issue with staff, but I started playing in 2010.  If they were more attentive previous to 2006 (or whenever Arm.2 stuff was starting to be discussed), I can't imagine it would have been that much of a difference.  My experiences have only been positive.  There still is development in the active game -- extended subclasses being the most recent.

So far as death, I've had a handful of shitty ones, but I must have had a higher-than average good experience rate with deaths.  I've been satisfied, after getting over the loss, with a lot of them.  So we'll just have to agree to disagree, hopefully.

[GlyphGryph]

I'm less than enamoured with the whole 'Find out IC' thing myself.  I fully support it as far as mechanics go though.  This really isn't the kind of game that encourages players to focus on 'builds' and powergaming.  There is an incredible amount of documentation available on the game's website that should explain a lot of the gameworld and it's culture.  I'd be more than happy to help you find specific information or help clarify anything for you.  Just let me know if there are any particular areas you need help with.  That offer is open to anyone.

Hah, no, its fine, I mostly stopped playing because of the time sink more than anything. But I still think playing a pretty generic character for your first go is probably the best way to get a feel for the world.

A dwarven 'rinther, for example, is not the best starting character - the documentation on the website doesn't even begin to prepare you for that.

I spent a lot of time really wanting to pick other people's minds for what my character should know already, though, but the fairly strict no OOC stuff drove me crazy. Probably should have talked about with the staff more, I guess.

But none of those are criticisms of the game! Just recommended approaches - there are simpler and more complicated ways to play, and the fancier stuff might best wait until you feel like you've got a handle on things.


(My only actual complain was the strict no-linking policy, which, along with the games utter lack of ability to demonstrate things visually without knowing how to "write", which is pretty absurd, sort of killed both my semi-musical and semi-artistic ambitions.)

[Feco]

(My only actual complain was the strict no-linking policy, which, along with the games utter lack of ability to demonstrate things visually without knowing how to "write", which is pretty absurd, sort of killed both my semi-musical and semi-artistic ambitions.)

There are still bards

[Yoink]

I love Mudding, although I haven't played any* in about a year now.
I played Atonement first, in its alpha stage, and when it closed before beta I moved over to Shadows of Isildur which I absolutely loved. I did try, once,** to start playing Armageddon, but its setting didn't really grab me, I was still playing SoI, and to top it all off Arm's system and lack of ANSI colour just struck me as a bit clunky.
Also the website, where I tried to source info for my character from, was quite confusing. I wandered around for a while, generally being an edgy, thuggish fellow with the intellect of a sandfly, tried to find work in the city, and then eventually quit.
Still, I haven't played an RPI since SoI closed, so maybe I'll try out Armageddon again and enjoy it, who knows.
I do have some logs from other RPI Muds, if anyone needs them...

* Unless you count Hellmoo.
** Actually, I did try once before, although this was before I'd ever played an RPI and I was, to put it mildly, pretty clueless. If I remember rightly my background involved my character wiping out his tribe and going off to wander the desert, or something equally stupid.