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Total Members Voted: 12

[LordBucket]

neither elementals nor mages can easily turn soil into rock.

...umm...why not? Soil is basically ground up rock. Apply pressure. Done. If you want to get fancy, apply heat. This is 9000 year old technology. Why can't we do it with earth elementals to move earth, and fire elementals if we need them for heat?

Why for that matter, how do earth elementals even form their own bodies if they can't turn earth into solid blocks?

[3 seeders - 3 farms - 1 turn]
[3 clippers - 1 drydock - 1 turn] (these two will be finished by turn 2.)

...?

 * You said last turn that the drydocks would be done in one turn. They should be finished by now.
 * I thought those farms were finished two turns ago. Those seeders have been working since turn 1.

[Skyrunner]

Note that it is currently turn .5, not turn 1. You spent a mere five hours in this otherworld.

Second, Compressed Earth Block != granite. Neither does brick equal granite.

" I require an inverted cone of topsoil approximately a quarter mile in diameter converted into granite, as well as large quantities of quartz and marble. " : They cannot easily turn soil, which is very impure, into granite. Emphasis on 'easily'.

[IronyOwl]

Also note that bricks are generally made of clay, not just "soil," are usually fired, not just compressed, and are not usually regarded as equivalent to stone.

[LordBucket]

soil, which is very impure, into granite.

Granite isn't exactly a specific type of stone. It's a composite of basically whatever. I chose granite because it should be relatively easy to make, since it's ubiquitous, generic, and it's composition is not very specific.

Compressed Earth Block != granite. Neither does brick equal granite.

I don't particularly care about the precise mineral content. Any kind of hard stone, or even poured concrete would be fine.

quartz and marble

What's the composition of the soil here that makes having elementals manufacture these things so difficult? Marble is a bit more specific than granite, but the minerals are far from rare. And quartz is the second-most-abundant mineral in the Earth's crust. I'm not asking for anything special here.  Like granite, I chose quartz because the required minerals should be plentiful. If beryl crystals like emeralds or something would be easier in this specific soil environment, that's fine too. The goal is to use hard crystals as a building material. I don't particularly care which minerals the crystals are made of.

Emphasis on 'easily'

Why is it difficult? Crystals are grown through entirely natural processes all the time. I've grown crystals in my kitchen personally...and I didn't have a bunch of magic users and elementals helping me. Here's a kit you can buy for $8 that will allow you grow quartz.

12 year olds with kitchen appliances can do this. Why is it difficult for spellcasting wizards and conjured elementals? Getting an earth elemental to make stones and crystals should be much easier than getting them to take on upright, bipedal forms and fight. If I ask a fire elemental to burn something...that should be pretty easy. Fire burns things. If I ask a water elemental to flow downstream, that should be pretty easy too, since that's basically what water does anyway. Asking an earth elemental to make rocks should be similarly easy. I just want the elementals to make specific rocks. I don't think that's any more demanding than asking a fire elemental to burn that specific thing, or an air elemental to blow wind in that specific direction.

[Lillipad]

You're trying to argue the GM. This is frowned upon.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[IronyOwl]

I don't think arguing with the GM is a bad thing if you've got a good point.


I do think "turning topsoil into solid quartz blocks is as easy as burning or blowing on something" is a stretch, though. At the very least, I'd think it'd be equivalent to melting a stone into a different type of stone or using wind power to sandblast a boulder into a statue. I mean, with burning or blowing, the process is obvious- apply element. How exactly does being formed of earth give an earth elemental the ability to transform soil into solid stone? Crushing it a lot?

[LordBucket]

How exactly does being formed of earth give an earth elemental the ability to transform soil into solid stone?

How do you conjure up an earth elemental in the first place if you don't have the ability to take earth and mold it into specific coherent shape?


The difference between sand and rock is particle size. In a world with magic, where we can make flying ships and create interdimensional rifts, taking small rocks and combining them to make big rocks just doesn't seem like a particularly difficult feat to me.

[IronyOwl]

How do you conjure up an earth elemental in the first place if you don't have the ability to take earth and mold it into specific coherent shape?

I assume it forms its own body as part of its summoning. A fire elemental presumably can't generate infinite fuel for you, despite probably being on fire at the time, and a human can't transmute wheat into steak. Not without getting messy, that is.

The difference between sand and rock is particle size. In a world with magic, where we can make flying ships and create interdimensional rifts, taking small rocks and combing them to make big rocks just doesn't seem like a particularly difficult feat to me.

Heatlessly melting them into a unified product doesn't strike me as a trivial thing to do, even assuming magic. Even flawlessly repairing a vase strikes me as something you'd need actual training or a specialty in to accomplish, not just a generic mage trick, and that's just heatlessly melting something of the same material. This would be more like melding a vase, rock, and wooden table into a solid composite material- arguably doable, but not really trivial.

[LordBucket]

Heatlessly melting them into a unified product doesn't
strike me as a trivial thing to do, even assuming magic

Why not? Neither heat nor magic are involved in the formation of sedimentary rock.

A fire elemental presumably can't generate infinite fuel for
you, despite probably being on fire at the time

I'm not asking the elementals to create anything. Simply to rearrange existing material. Nobody would have a problem with it if we asked an air elemental to give us wind to move our ships. The elemental is causing the material of its element to move. We don't actually imagine a human-shaped body of air standing up against the sail and pushing.

fire elemental presumably can't generate infinite fuel

But it probably can generate infinite fire. Fuel is not fire. Asking a fire elemental to generate fuel doesn't make sense. But if you give it fuel and ask it to make more fire...it should have no problem with that. I'm giving earth elementals soil and earth, and asking them to use that to make stone...via exactly the same processes that the earth does. Just faster. I think that's reasonable.

I assume it forms its own body as part of its summoning.

Ok. So...whether it's the "spirit of the earth" that's forming the body of an elemental, or us as wizards forming that elemental body...either way, the shaping of earth is a necessary part of that process. I don't really care if we use elementals, I just want to make rocks.

Making rock that sits there and does nothing should be much easier than making rocks that stand upright and walk around.

Right?

[IronyOwl]

Heatlessly melting them into a unified product doesn't
strike me as a trivial thing to do, even assuming magic

Why not? Neither heat nor magic are involved in the formation of sedimentary rock.

A ton of time and rather specific conditions are, though.

I'm not asking the elementals to create anything. Simply to rearrange existing material. Nobody would have a problem with it if we asked an air elemental to give us wind to move our ships. The elemental is causing the material of its element to move. We don't actually imagine a human-shaped body of air standing up against the sail and pushing.

To rearrange it on a very, very fundamental level. Humans can't turn a pile of calcium into bones just because they're made of bones, and it's not a simple transformation regardless just because they're chemically the same.

If you wanted an earth elemental to move some earth around, or move some things that happened to be in the earth, I don't think anyone would have more of a problem with it than a wind elemental generating wind for your sails. I think this is more akin to asking a wind elemental to produce isolated hydrogen for you, or perhaps precipitate liquid water out of the air.

But it probably can generate infinite fire. Fuel is not fire. Asking a fire elemental to generate fuel doesn't make sense. But if you give it fuel and ask it to make more fire...it should have no problem with that. I'm giving earth elementals soil and earth, and asking them to use that to make stone...via exactly the same processes that the earth does. Just faster. I think that's reasonable.

This does sound reasonable, but I still don't think it'd be as quick or simple as a fire elemental lighting things on fire or a wind elemental blowing on something. A fire elemental turning wood into charcoal might be a better analogy- doable, but definitely a full-on crafting action.

Of course, this does assume these elementals are of the fairly magical variety. Some depictions of them just have them as blobs of element with no particular abilities otherwise.

Ok. So...whether it's the "spirit of the earth" that's forming the body of an elemental, or us as wizards forming that elemental body...either way, the shaping of earth is a necessary part of that process. I don't really care if we use elementals, I just want to make rocks.

Making rock that sits there and does nothing should be much easier than making rocks that stand upright and walk around.

Right?

Well for starters, I'm not sure earth elementals are made of solid stone; I usually envision them being extremely densely packed soil.

Assuming they are stone, I'm also not sure if the material for the body is made of local materials. Starting a big enough fire to summon a fire elemental might make sense, for instance, but it might not be necessary, depending on the exact process.

Finally, if earth elementals are made of stone, and this stone does come from what used to be dirt on the spot you summoned it, you've still got the potential for the human-steak problem; just because it can form its own body out of it doesn't mean it can utilize the same process on command.


If it's the mages who are doing the shaping, and earth elementals are made of stone, and the stone comes from local dirt, then yes, I would say your mages can probably made dirt into stone with at least as little effort as it takes to summon said elementals. That still wouldn't necessarily make it a trivial or even feasible process, though- you presumably cannot make an entire building out of earth elementals in a day (at least, I would assume not- I actually have no idea), which leaves the rate of elemental-less stone production with a rather large possible range.

[LordBucket]

Anyway, since everyone's been waiting for this:

: Attention all fleet commanders. This is Azalyn Kemetari in command of the third fleet.

3 hours ago you all received the broadcast from the commander of the Hebecin demanding our obedience and threatening death to anyone amongst us who did not give it. An hour after that broadcast, the Hebecin confronted my fleet and demanded my surrender. I refused. Instead, I ordered my forces to engage the Hebecin and, after nearly two hours battle we have emerged victorious. The last few survivors of the imperial royal family have been put to death and at this very moment the head of (nameless npc?) the alleged son of our former emperor lies on my desk, bereft of life.

Our former world, Apollyon, and the empire that ruled over it, are both gone. Let us not grieve, for now it is time to look to the future. The empire once claimed that it ruled with the mandate of heaven. If that was true, then clearly with the death of the emperor and his entire world, the heavens have spoken that it is time for change.

Our former emperor knew this, and it is why he chose to die with that world. I did not kill our emperor. He chose his own death. I have not destroyed the empire. It died with dignity on another world in order to give birth to a new world here, with us. The man whose head lies on my desk was not the emperor. He was a pretender to the throne who believed that by virtue of his blood he was entitled to take possession of this new world our emperor gave his life to give to us.

Heaven has spoken. The time of imperial rule is over. In this new world it is time for new beginnings. No longer shall men be compelled to obey an emperor out of fear of imprisonment and execution. No longer shall men murder one another and deny responsibility by claiming that they were merely "following orders." No longer shall those who accomplish great things be forgotten to history as mere servants of a man sitting on a faraway throne.

From this day forward, we choose our own fate.

The shackles of tradition and history weight heavily upon us. I implore you all, cast them off. Do not be bound by the traditions of a dead world, lest those traditions drag us down to die with it. Those traditions died with Apollyon. This world is our future.

Let us choose wisely the future we make for ourselves.

Azalyn Kemetari of the third fleet...out.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandate_of_Heaven

"The Mandate of Heaven  is a traditional Chinese philosophical concept concerning the legitimacy of rulers. It is similar to the European concept of the divine right of kings, in that both sought to legitimize rule from divine approval; however, unlike the divine right of kings, the Mandate of Heaven is predicated on the conduct of the ruler in question. The Mandate of Heaven postulates that heaven would bless the authority of a just ruler, as defined by the Five Confucian Relationships, but would be displeased with a despotic ruler and would withdraw its mandate, leading to the overthrow of that ruler. The Mandate of Heaven would then transfer to those who would rule best. The mere fact of a leader having been overthrown is itself indication that he has lost the Mandate of Heaven."

[Haspen]

Argus has no new orders for his flet - it will just continue it's flight.

Spoiler: Stuff (click to show/hide)

Name: Argus Kaledos
Current civilians (3500)
Supplies (2800)
Fleet: Blackhorse (300 Storage, +8 Speed, +8 short range, - long range, +3 protection)
14 civilian ships (3500/3500 civillians)
8 scouts
4 cruisers
4 supply ships (2800/2800 supplies)
3 seeders (300/300 seeds)
3 lumber clippers (300/300 building material)
2 strafers
2 ping dynamos
1 steamer (100 fuel)
1 arcani (10 mages)

[LordBucket]

I think this is more akin to asking a wind elemental to produce isolated
hydrogen for you, or perhaps precipitate liquid water out of the air.

Using an air elemental to condense water from the air seems pretty reasonable to me. Take a beer from your fridge and put it on the counter. Wait 30 seconds and you'll have water condensation.

These are not complicated processes we're talking about.

This does sound reasonable, but I still don't think it'd be as quick or simple
as a fire elemental lighting things on fire

It might not be as fast, but between me and 10 other mages creating an army of elemental drones for the specific purpose of making stones...it just seems like it shouldn't be that difficult. Any 12 year old today can grow crystals in their kitchen for a couple dollars worth of materials. Why is it so difficult to use magic to speed up the process?

Skyrunner has already confirmed that it is possible, just stated that it "won't be easy." I guess the question is how not easy. Again, seems to me that if we can make interdimensional rifts and flying ships and I saw Atmos experimenting with making undead...me wanting to make pretty rocks just doesn't seem like a lot to ask for.

Sky...this is my goal.

And I'd like to use crystal for the buildings so that they look roughly like a cross between this and this.

I'm a 200 year old sociopathic wizard. Living in a house made of wood just doesn't work for me.

[IronyOwl]

Using an air elemental to condense water from the air seems pretty reasonable to me. Take a beer from your fridge and put it on the counter. Wait 30 seconds and you'll have water condensation.

Which is a function of cold, not air manipulation, and requires an awful lot of effort for what you get out of it. You'll notice condensers designed to perform exactly this function for practical purposes are exceedingly rare.

These are not complicated processes we're talking about.

They don't have to be complicated to describe to be difficult to pull off. "Split an atom in half" and "blow up the Earth" aren't complicated if you want to describe them in those terms.

It might not be as fast, but between me and 10 other mages creating an army of elemental drones for the specific purpose of making stones...it just seems like it shouldn't be that difficult. Any 12 year old today can grow crystals in their kitchen for a couple dollars worth of materials. Why is it so difficult to use magic to speed up the process?

Ten people creating enough stones, directly or indirectly, for building a major structure is still a fairly impressive accomplishment.

And a twelve year old can grow crystals by dumping a seed and the powder of a crystal specifically chosen for this purpose in water and letting it grow a bit, not digging up his backyard and forming a block out of it. You might as well complain that a twelve year old can keep ants in his bedroom, so why can't you instantly tame lions for guard duty and mounts?

Skyrunner has already confirmed that it is possible, just stated that it "won't be easy." I guess the question is how not easy. Again, seems to me that if we can make interdimensional rifts and flying ships and I saw Atmos experimenting with making undead...me wanting to make pretty rocks just doesn't seem like a lot to ask for.

There's a big, big difference between what your civilization as a whole is capable of and what ten guys standing in a field can do. The fact that we can go to the moon doesn't mean a group of engineers can manufacture complex alloys at will.

And you'll notice that Atmos' attempt failed for lack of materials, so we're not sure how far he would have gotten. I suspect he wouldn't have been living in a castle of bones within the hour, though.


Also, Dalaran wasn't built in a day, you know. Not that it's even been a day yet.

[Haspen]

-stuff-

That's exactly why I'm trying to get as far as possible with my fleet

Also, wouldn't an OOC chat be more appropriate for lengthy magitechnical posts? It's another time I got lost if it's another turn or just talk ;/