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[Shakerag]

[Weekend's over, so I'm expecting to see you all active now.  We've had two flips and pages of discussion, so excuses along the lines of "I don't have anything to go on" are not going to fly.]

[General observation:  phrases along the lines of "if X, then I'll do Y".  For those making them, don't do this.  Because if X happens and you can't/won't do Y, you're likely going to hang.  For those seeing these phrases, generally speaking, don't trust them.  In non-beginner's games this will really show up when you start to see 3rd-party survivors.  "If you don't hang me, I'll help town win."  <couple days later> *backstab* "Sorry, I'm siding with the scumteam now."]

[Supercharazad@184:  I'll grant you that your reasoning in your "2:" point is solid and a good observation, but ... what is your reasoning for why one scum would want to bus another from the start of D2, especially since the town power roles have just been eliminated?]

[Supercharazad@185:  Metaphorically speaking, when everyone is pointing a gun at each other, it's best to not start handing out extra ammo.  Admitting reasoning is weak when FoSing/non-voting is okay if you follow through.  Admitting reasoning is weak when voting = bad.  In this particular case, you shouldn't have mentioned "chainsawing" at all.  Best case: no one notices; you're fine.  Worst case: get called on it.  However, even if it looks like a chainsaw and quacks like a chainsaw, *if* your reasons for voting are air-tight then you'll likely be fine.]

[Jiokuy@186:  See above.  Also, if you think someone is scum, but can't prove it ... what do you think you should be doing next?  What makes you think you have to "read from a scum's perspective" when posting?]

[Jiokuy@190:  Never stop scumhunting.  If you're doing it wrong, the ICs will not neglect to inform you of that fact.  If one of us isn't breathing down your neck, then you're fine.]

[obolisk@191:  Unless it states so in the rules, all votes are wiped at day start.]

[Jiokuy@194:  Day ends Tuesday; no need for an extend yet.  Unless you have a good reason ("I'm going to be gone tomorrow") it makes you seem jumpy/nervous to extend early.]

[Supercharazad]

1: I don't know, but it's the only thing that really makes sense.
2: True, but if I mention that it's justified and the person I'm voting also happens to say it's justified, it's pretty damn hard to say it isn't.

[Shakerag]

Hapah:  So, your weak-ass case on borno actually got you to a mislynch.  Congratulations, scum.  Let's detail what you're going to be hanging for today. 

borno's "edit" to his RVS question was inconsequential.  Dopey, sure, but not scummy.  Not answering a question until you've answered his?  Unnoteworthy.  But you vote him for it and get fairly defensive when he responds (IMO appropriately) to you. 

[Also, borno@76, that really wasn't an OMGUS.] 
See the top of Hapah@77 for something more OMGUS-like.

You've got a self-admitted weak case.  You had other players telling you it was a weak case.  Yet you kept your vote on borno the entire time and, more importantly, never really went back to put more pressure on him!  If you had put in as much effort pressuring borno D1 as you did defending your "weak scumtell" to everyone else, I might not be voting you right now. 

[Urist Imiknorris]

Supercharazad:

I voted against extend because it seemed very likely that he was trying to extend to try and pass away some of those votes, and because there really wasn't any need for an extend.

Which leads to my question. Why are you voting me and ignoring the other person who voted against an extend?

Because you, unlike Jiokuy, hadn't explained why you opposed an extend. Now that you have, unvote.

Shakerag: Nice move there, completely forgetting that oh yeah, you were voting Hapah, and should maybe build a case on him.

obolisk:

Would it be considered in poor taste to start off with "I told you so" and "You guys are dumb"?

Probably.

I would also like to clarify something in this post.  I make a clear distinction between a shitty reason and a bullshit reason.  A vote with a shitty reason actually has some basis, however small.  A bullshit vote has NO REAL BASIS.  You are not making votes with shitty reasons, you are making BULLSHIT votes.  That's why I think you're scum.

Who are those last two sentences directed to?

[Hapah]

Alright, I've got some time. Lots to read through, so let me know if I missed anything.

. . .Well. . . Is this a new record?

In light of the recent flips, I would have to put my vote on eithir Urist or Hapah.

It is very WIFOM though, If Hapah was scum, and he knew borno was town, then he really pushed that vote hard and that makes him suspicious now that he has flipped. As a matter though he did directly lead to the lynching of a power role, so my vote is on him. for now.

I'd disagree with this. I knew my case wasn't the strongest, but I felt borno was the best vote of a bad lot. I dont' think I crammed it down anyone's throat, though I did have to defend that vote more than once. And how would I know borno was a power role? It's real unfortunate, but I had no way to know.

Well, that was fast.  Okay:
My vote on Hapah still stands, because he's a scummy son of a bitch.  I still say his reasons for voting borno are bullshit.  Beyond that, he was perfectly alright with letting Day 1 end with a no lynch.
In addition to this, Urist looks pretty goddamn suspicious to me.  I think your attack on Borno was also bullshit.  OMGUSing is a scum tell, but in this case, I think it's a null tell, because EVERYONE ATTACKING HIM HAD BULLSHIT REASONS.  Including you.
I would also like to clarify something in this post.  I make a clear distinction between a shitty reason and a bullshit reason.  A vote with a shitty reason actually has some basis, however small.  A bullshit vote has NO REAL BASIS.  You are not making votes with shitty reasons, you are making BULLSHIT votes.  That's why I think you're scum.

So I a "scummy son of a bitch." I know my reasons are weak, and I played it straight. And yeah, I was alright with Day 1 ending in a no-lynch, because this is a beginner's game. Telling people that a D1 lynch is necessary is all fine and well, but experience is the best teacher: And most of us are in this game to learn. I actually wanted to see how it played out, I've never been in a mafia without a D1 lynch. I'm well aware that my actions may be controversial, but there you are.

Jiokuy: Glad to see you getting your hands dirty! Not happy that you're shooting at me, but it's preferable to lurking. I wouldn't say that I redirected anyone to borno. I was asked questions about my actions and opinions, and answered to the best of my ability. Others (Super and Flying, if memory serves. Will have to re-read to confirm) picked up on things that made him borno look scummy, and the things they spotted seemed reasonable (to me, at least). Also...nevermind, Urist already set you straight on the "if he flips town, lynch me" thing. Two wrongs don't make a right and all that.

Hapah:  So, your weak-ass case on borno actually got you to a mislynch.  Congratulations, scum.  Let's detail what you're going to be hanging for today. 

borno's "edit" to his RVS question was inconsequential.  Dopey, sure, but not scummy.  Not answering a question until you've answered his?  Unnoteworthy.  But you vote him for it and get fairly defensive when he responds (IMO appropriately) to you. 

[Also, borno@76, that really wasn't an OMGUS.] 
See the top of Hapah@77 for something more OMGUS-like.

You've got a self-admitted weak case.  You had other players telling you it was a weak case.  Yet you kept your vote on borno the entire time and, more importantly, never really went back to put more pressure on him!  If you had put in as much effort pressuring borno D1 as you did defending your "weak scumtell" to everyone else, I might not be voting you right now.

Saying I'm going to hang today is a bit premature. Why is everyone so hostile? I haven't even defended myself before this post.

Yes, I knew my case was weak, and I readily admitted it. I kept my vote on borno because it was generating discussion, even if most of it was accusations and suspicions leveled at me. I think anything I did at that point would have been painted as scummy.

More pressure? He's trying really hard to get this guy lynched on no evidence, SCUM.
Less pressure? Apparently that makes me scummy-looking too.
Change my vote? God help me, can you imagine that? "Look, he's trying to get away! LYNCH!!"

Hell, if borno hadn't tried to deflect suspicion every time someone looked at him he'd probably still be alive, but we have to go with what we've got. I'm sorry that he got lynched, but I'm not going to stick my neck in the noose so he can live. I know town's primary concern isn't living, but I'm not going to martyr myself for another person whose alignment I don't know at the time.

If I missed anything, or if you have any follow-up questions, let me know.

I imagine Flying was killed because (s)he was very good at that particular way of questioning that makes you spill your guts to answer the questions. You just get needled and needled, have to answer this legitimate question that that quote taken somewhat out of context and oh yeah, what about this questionable thing you said? It's exhausting to be on the receiving end of that, and when you make a slip Flying would know.

My suspicions are that at least one (MAYBE both, but I find that unlikely) of the people that voted borno are scum. Flying is dead, so that leaves me, Super, and Urist. Signs point to me, apparently, but there you are.

[Shakerag]

Shakerag: Nice move there, completely forgetting that oh yeah, you were voting Hapah, and should maybe build a case on him.

Hapah:  I am getting too sleepy to finish this post right now, but expect that I'm going to knock on your door in the near (read: very likely Monday) future. 

Added emphasis.  I wrote up my IC post and decided to put the stuff about Hapah in a separate one.

[Urist Imiknorris]

I imagine Flying was killed because (s)he was very good at that particular way of questioning that makes you spill your guts to answer the questions. You just get needled and needled, have to answer this legitimate question that that quote taken somewhat out of context and oh yeah, what about this questionable thing you said? It's exhausting to be on the receiving end of that, and when you make a slip Flying would know.

This is a good description of good scumhunting.

I wrote up my IC post and decided to put the stuff about Hapah in a separate one.

And that took you over an hour to type?

[obolisk0430]

I would also like to clarify something in this post.  I make a clear distinction between a shitty reason and a bullshit reason.  A vote with a shitty reason actually has some basis, however small.  A bullshit vote has NO REAL BASIS.  You are not making votes with shitty reasons, you are making BULLSHIT votes.  That's why I think you're scum.

Who are those last two sentences directed to?

You.  You were excusing away your lack of evidence as "Oh, it's only day one, nobody has much of anything to go on day 1".
I'm saying that you didn't have a shitty reason for voting.  In fact, you didn't have any. 

[Urist Imiknorris]

Incorrect. If you'll remember, I stated my reason: He was deflecting suspicion onto whoever attacked him.

[Jiokuy]

@Hapah so what about Dice. It would seem very convenient that the player whom was hunting you prior to borno's slip up would die on the same night borno flips town no?

aAso, something still seems off about super's posts, but I cannot identify it. Is it that they seems to lack actual content/solidity? Enh it is probably nothing but beginner game jitters. Hell I'm sure I throw 30 dozen tells a post. Dosen't mean I'm not gonna look at you funny though Supercharazad!?

[borno]

Hah, just posting to mention how funny it was that no one had posted a 'Bah' post. It's as if this thread is protected with some sort anti-bah thing!


...Damn.

[Urist Imiknorris]

@Hapah so what about Dice. It would seem very convenient that the player whom was hunting you prior to borno's slip up would die on the same night borno flips town no?

Attempting to glean information from nightkills is beyond pointless, because scum could easily use that to frame someone else.

[obolisk0430]

Incorrect. If you'll remember, I stated my reason: He was deflecting suspicion onto whoever attacked him.

With good fucking reason.  Everyone was voting him for completely dumbass and shitty reasons.  That makes it a null tell.

[Supercharazad]

aAso, something still seems off about super's posts, but I cannot identify it. Is it that they seems to lack actual content/solidity? Enh it is probably nothing but beginner game jitters. Hell I'm sure I throw 30 dozen tells a post. Dosen't mean I'm not gonna look at you funny though Supercharazad!?

So wait, was there meant to be a question following that, or did you just think it would be a good idea to kick a bit of your suspicion onto me, scumbucket?
If you'd voted me there, instead of FoSing me, I'd have a case of OMGUS on you as well as voting with bullshit reasons, leading me to believe you're acting townier than you actually are.

Here's a question for you, if you knew I was scum with total certainty through cheating or something, would you have voted me there instead of the FoS?

What was your reason for FoSing me? Did you have one, or are you just making up mindless bullshit to try and throw some suspicion onto the only person voting you? Scum.

[Shakerag]

I wrote up my IC post and decided to put the stuff about Hapah in a separate one.

And that took you over an hour to type?

I had to do some RL stuff in the interim. 

I'd disagree with this. I knew my case wasn't the strongest, but I felt borno was the best vote of a bad lot.

So out of all of the players in the game, and with all the other reasons they had for voting whomever they did, you still felt that borno was the best person to keep your vote on? 

So I a "scummy son of a bitch." I know my reasons are weak, and I played it straight. And yeah, I was alright with Day 1 ending in a no-lynch, because this is a beginner's game. Telling people that a D1 lynch is necessary is all fine and well, but experience is the best teacher: And most of us are in this game to learn. I actually wanted to see how it played out, I've never been in a mafia without a D1 lynch. I'm well aware that my actions may be controversial, but there you are.

[The ICs are experienced, and your teachers.  If we're telling you a D1 no lynch is almost always a bad idea, then you listen.  If you're here to learn, and we're here to teach, but you're not going to listen to us, then what's the point?]
[Experience has also shown that controversial actions will get you lynched.  That's best left for game theory threads, not in the middle of a game.]

Saying I'm going to hang today is a bit premature. Why is everyone so hostile? I haven't even defended myself before this post.

[Try not to take it personally; this is a game that favors aggression.  I had to get used to it myself when I started.]

Yes, I knew my case was weak, and I readily admitted it. I kept my vote on borno because it was generating discussion, even if most of it was accusations and suspicions leveled at me. I think anything I did at that point would have been painted as scummy.

More pressure? He's trying really hard to get this guy lynched on no evidence, SCUM.
Less pressure? Apparently that makes me scummy-looking too.
Change my vote? God help me, can you imagine that? "Look, he's trying to get away! LYNCH!!"

Remember what we've been trying to impress upon you this entire time?  Active scumhunting makes you not look like scum.  But, I'll address your options individually anyway:
-More pressure: If you get results, great.  You look like you're aggressively scumhunting.  Not getting results?  Maybe that's an indication you're barking up the wrong tree. 
-Less pressure: I can't really think of a good situation where this would be beneficial.
-Changing vote: If your reasoning is weak, and you're not getting anything else to continue a case with, changing your vote is not scummy.