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[Jim Groovester]

• If you n33d more time to discuss, you may ask for an extension.  If more players ask for one than those who decline one, the day will be extended by 48 hours.
• • There are no limit to the number of extensions allowed per day.

Day has been extended. Day will now end Thursday 9:00 PM MST.

I'll honor this rule for this extension, but I'm changing it for the future. I will require that >33% of the players request an extension for an extension to go through in order to make sure this game keeps going and people don't fall victim to extenditis. There will still be no limit to the number of extensions.

To extend again, there will need to be four votes for extension.

Supercharazad will replace Lord Allagon.
Flying Dice will replace Karlito.


[3] borno: Hapah, Jiokuy, Supercharazad
[2] Hapah: obolisk0430, Shakerag
[2] Jiokuy: Urist Imiknorris, borno

Not Voting: Dr. Phibes, Flying Dice

[Flying Dice]

Jiokuy, you've been online very recently, but you haven't posted for two days. I see two possibilities here:
1. You are lazy town. Just because things look bad doesn't mean you should give up. Get back in here and dig for scum. You won't save yourself by giving up (and frankly, you shouldn't care about being lynched if you're town), but you might if you start being aggressive and scumhunting. If you're town and not protesting or trying to stop a mislynch, you're hurting town. If you're town and you're giving up or lurking instead of scumhunting, you're hurting town.
2. You are scum, and have either given up at the prospect of an imminent lynch or are attempting to redirect attention by acting like lazy town.

I'm also curious about why you voted to "keep the conflict balanced"? That sounds like you don't care who gets lynched, which would suggest that either you're scum and both Hapah and borno are town and you're trying to fit into the "sideliner" category where you're active enough to smell like town but not active enough to be in the spotlight, or that you are (as above) lazy town.

I'm not positive which it is, but rest assured that if you do not respond, I will be voting for you, not least because your last few posts feel like what I've seen of Org's scumplay back in old 2009 games, albiet somewhat less polished.


Hapah, I only found it to be mildly suspicious when you answered Urist as if you were scum in this game, rather than hypothetically. That could very well be a newbtell, though, so I was going to put it aside if nothing else caught my eye.

However.

And nobody asked, but I don't really like the RVS in general. You do have to get the conversation moving, sure, but I wish people were a little tighter with their votes.

Why don't you like RVS votes? Are you uncomfortable with people putting pressure on you that early in the game? I understand that it could be tricky to hide your scumminess with little prior experience, so I can see how you wouldn't like having to deal with that sort of attention. RVS is one of the better ways for D1 town to start digging up enough reason for a focused scumhunt.

Furthermore, you went after borno for an insignificant change to his question for you, one which clarified it. That suggests to me that you're looking for an excuse to start a bandwagon without any real reason. Care to explain why town would want to bandwagon someone not because of evidence or even a gut feeling, but because they were trying to make things less complex? Complexity and confusion are tools of the informed minority, after all.

What really got my attention was your response back in your first active post.

Hapah:  It's N1, and you're a scum roleblocker.  No one claimed a role during D1.  How do you pick your target?

Look for the nervous one. You know the type: Posts 4 times in 30 minutes after getting one hard question and a RVS vote. New players get weighted a little easier (they're twitchy all the time), but I'd guess anyone that jumps when you say "Boo" probably does so for a reason.

So someone who responds once, with a brief post, is preferable to someone who posts multiple responses in a short period of time? More posts are always better because they let us get a better read on people, even if we're relatively new and don't have metaknowledge of playstyles. The more someone posts, the higher the chance that they'll drop a scumtell. I'll agree that people who freak out because they're targeted would be something to notice in a veteran game, but in BM it is basically a nulltell because people aren't used to being pressured like this. Quite apart from that, someone who is posting a lot, even if only in their own defense, is at least helping to keep the game active, which is always good for town.

@Hapah: It's D2. You are scum. There is a player aggressively attacking other players, and there is a lurker who has only posted twice in the actual game. Who do you kill?

Neither. They can both be useful, in their own way. The player aggressively attacking anything that moves muddies the waters, and as far as I'm concerned he's doing the Scum a favor. A lurker isn't hunting scum, and it's REAL hard to find them if not you're looking. As an added bonus, he'll look a little scummy because he's lurking: He might not be a hard lynch later in the game. If I had to choose one, though, I guess I'd NK the lurker.

So someone who is aggressively scumhunting and pressuring people is bad for town? You've implied and stating this several times now. One time I would probably file as a newbtell. Maybe twice. But three times, you've said that aggressive scumhunting is bad. That reeks of newscum trying to get town to be more passive to me. You also implied that it is preferential for scum to NK lurkers. Scum who NK lurkers are generally scum who are scared; this suggests that you're trying to subtly convey the notion that lurkers are therefore probably town. What this says to me is that you're trying to talk people into going after aggressive scumhunters (who help town and hurt scum) rather than pressuring lurkers into activity, which can only help town.

You reek of scum to me.

[Flying Dice]

Clarification: Jiokuy: You should care about being mislynched, but you should be trying to hunt scum, not defend yourself.

[Hapah]

Flying Dice: To avoid the whole quote-pyramid thing, I'll answer your questions in order. If you need clarification on any of them, just let me know.

On RVS - I don't like the RVS stage because I think the "pressure vote" is highly overused. I think town would get a lot more mileage if they didn't actually throw their vote at anything that moves and then change it to someone else for no discernible reason. It happens so often that people don't panic anyone if they get a vote or two on them in D1, because the votes are probably going to slide back off again. If the voting was a little less frequent, someone might actually flinch.

On why I'd "start a bandwagon" - This question is LOADED, but I'll play with it anyway. I don't know how I'm "starting a bandwagon" when, to my knowledge, I was the first person to point out what I see as a scumtell, not making things less complex. The original question didn't look complex at all to me, but it had already been asked. It looked like he was making a halfass attempt at scumhunting, so I grabbed onto it.

About who I'd target: I don't quite see what you're driving at here. The question assumed I was a scum roleblocker, and as a scum roleblocker I'd go after the jumpy folks, because I think they'd be more likely to be a power role.

On your last sentence - Where the hell is this coming from? A townie lashing out like a goddamn idiot at anything that moves because he doesn't have any leads ISN'T NECESSARILY A THREAT, the way I see it. People will disagree, sure, but that's how I see it.

I don't much care for the way you framed some of my words, but I think I've answered all of your questions. If I missed one, or you want a followup/clarification, just let me know.

[Urist Imiknorris]

Furthermore, you went after borno for an insignificant change to his question for you, one which clarified it. That suggests to me that you're looking for an excuse to start a bandwagon without any real reason. Care to explain why town would want to bandwagon someone not because of evidence or even a gut feeling, but because they were trying to make things less complex? Complexity and confusion are tools of the informed minority, after all.

Welcome to Day 1. Nobody knows anything, so the smaller things count for more. And starting a bandwagon isn't a scumtell.

[borno]

Clarification: Jiokuy: You should care about being mislynched, but you should be trying to hunt scum, not defend yourself.

This, Jiokuy. If you are town, you have to remember that your main goal is to lynch all mafia, and if you give yourself up for a mislynch, it will actually hinder your chances at winning. As I have read somewhere, never underestimate your importance. If you need some help, read the FAQ.

I am voting borno because of what I saw as a small scumtell.

On why I'd "start a bandwagon" - This question is LOADED, but I'll play with it anyway. I don't know how I'm "starting a bandwagon" when, to my knowledge, I was the first person to point out what I see as a scumtell, not making things less complex. The original question didn't look complex at all to me, but it had already been asked. It looked like he was making a halfass attempt at scumhunting, so I grabbed onto it.

What the hell is this? First you say that you are voting me 'Because of a small scumtell', but then you say that it is a 'Halfass Attempt at scumhunting'? A 'Halfassed attempt at scumhunting' is much worse than a 'Small Scumtell'! And now, now that I have answered all your questions, fixed my error (My answer would change if it was N1 instead), even found a 'Big Scumtell', yet you still hang onto my vote? And Jiokuy making a lousily hidden bandwagon vote against me starts to make me think that you and Jiokuy could be a scumteam.

Unvote, Vote Hapah.

[Flying Dice]

Unvote.

I'm wondering how exactly I "framed your words"? I quoted your responses to those questions in their entirety. Sounds to me like you're trying to back out of what you said.

Yes, you were talking in hypotheticals, but you were still suggesting that being active is bad for town. I'd argue that even a Toony Tunnel is better for town than townies that aren't putting pressure on people. Yes, we don't have a lot to go on at the moment, so we're mostly pushing people to see where cracks appear. That's what D1 is about; it isn't going to be clean, and there is going to be a lot of arbitrary voting, but that's what good town does on D1. Even if we end up with a mislynch, that is still better than not doing any investigating, because if we're passive in D1, then we don't have much to work with on D2, which essentially means that the scum get a free NK. Once we have evidence and patterns to work with, we'll be more directed in scumhunting. But for now, any effort at convincing people to stop applying pressure looks like antitown behavior to me.

I was going to switch my vote to Jiokuy at this point in an attempt to pressure him into not giving up so easily, but then I noticed your response to one of Shakerag's questions.

[So everyone's content to end the day on a tie then?]

If nothing else, it should be educational.  I'm fine with it for that reason: experience is a very good teacher.

There's still a few hours, though: Someone might change their mind.

Sounds like you don't care too much who gets lynched, or even if there is a no-lynch. SCUM SCUM SCUM.

Hapah


Jiokuy. Get in here and start contributing. Even if you're mislynched, you might turn up something we can use to catch scum. If you let yourself be killed, you are hurting town. For now, I am assuming that you are either scum or a townie so apathetic that a mislynch of you is better than a possible mislynch of an active townie. Prove me wrong.

This has already been mentioned before, but you voted borno for a very scummy reason. Town doesn't want to make things balanced, town wants to catch scum. Don't throw your vote on someone because you want to balance things, throw your vote on someone because you want to pressure them, because they look like scum.

Here is my question for you:

If you were scum, what sort of behavior would you want to see from a townie taking pressure from other townies?

Furthermore, you went after borno for an insignificant change to his question for you, one which clarified it. That suggests to me that you're looking for an excuse to start a bandwagon without any real reason. Care to explain why town would want to bandwagon someone not because of evidence or even a gut feeling, but because they were trying to make things less complex? Complexity and confusion are tools of the informed minority, after all.

Welcome to Day 1. Nobody knows anything, so the smaller things count for more. And starting a bandwagon isn't a scumtell.

Thanks, and thanks for the reminder. Since I haven't even been here for most of D1, I'm mostly throwing accusations to see what sort of cracks show up.

[Hapah]

Flying Dice: I disagreed with the meaning you pulled out of my questions here

Jiokuy, you've been online very recently, but you haven't posted for two days. I see two possibilities here:
Furthermore, you went after borno for an insignificant change to his question for you, one which clarified it. That suggests to me that you're looking for an excuse to start a bandwagon without any real reason. Care to explain why town would want to bandwagon someone not because of evidence or even a gut feeling, but because they were trying to make things less complex? Complexity and confusion are tools of the informed minority, after all.

Where me going after what I see as a scumtell is somehow starting a bandwagon (despite the fact that I was the first and laid my argument's weakness on the table), and here

Hapah:  It's N1, and you're a scum roleblocker.  No one claimed a role during D1.  How do you pick your target?

Look for the nervous one. You know the type: Posts 4 times in 30 minutes after getting one hard question and a RVS vote. New players get weighted a little easier (they're twitchy all the time), but I'd guess anyone that jumps when you say "Boo" probably does so for a reason.

So someone who responds once, with a brief post, is preferable to someone who posts multiple responses in a short period of time? More posts are always better because they let us get a better read on people, even if we're relatively new and don't have metaknowledge of playstyles. The more someone posts, the higher the chance that they'll drop a scumtell. I'll agree that people who freak out because they're targeted would be something to notice in a veteran game, but in BM it is basically a nulltell because people aren't used to being pressured like this. Quite apart from that, someone who is posting a lot, even if only in their own defense, is at least helping to keep the game active, which is always good for town.

Where me answering a question on what I'd do as a scum roleblocker SOMEHOW gives you that first sentence of "insight" about what I think is best for town. I'm trying to see what you see in those words, and I can't.

You are quoting me word-for-word, this is true, but you're pulling some very odd meanings out of them.

And YES, of course pressure is needed D1, we can't just sit around with our heads up our collective asses. I'm saying that plenty of pressure can be applied without throwing out some arbitrary votes, and that if the votes were saved for someone with a little suspicion instead of "here's a vote, now answer my question", we might manage to gather more information. I don't think I'm the first to put forward that view (Shakerag said I wasn't the first, but I couldn't tell you who has said it before), but I agree with the idea.

borno: I thought your halfass attempt at scumhunting WAS a scumtell. How many times do I have to say it before it sticks?

[Flying Dice]

I notice that you conveniently ignored the most significant of those statements of yours.

@Hapah: It's D2. You are scum. There is a player aggressively attacking other players, and there is a lurker who has only posted twice in the actual game. Who do you kill?

Neither. They can both be useful, in their own way. The player aggressively attacking anything that moves muddies the waters, and as far as I'm concerned he's doing the Scum a favor. A lurker isn't hunting scum, and it's REAL hard to find them if not you're looking. As an added bonus, he'll look a little scummy because he's lurking: He might not be a hard lynch later in the game. If I had to choose one, though, I guess I'd NK the lurker.

Emphasis mine. You outright stated that you think that active scumhunting helps scum. Random, aggressive attacks in D1 are normal; we're trying to find something to work with here. Why do you think that scumhunting is good for scum? Townies shouldn't be passive or careful, scum should. If you're town, you should be concentrating on scumhunting, regardless of whether or not you have firm evidence to go on, and this is a perfect example of why.

Note that you didn't say "throwing out random votes", you said "aggressively attacking". They are not the same thing, and now you're trying to take back what you said.

I wouldn't disagree that RVS is not always necessary, but in a game where people are slow/unwilling to respond, it can be. Quite apart from that, if you meant random votes, why didn't you say random votes?

Urist: A question. You're scum, and you see a few townies going at each other while ignoring everyone else, with the end of the day still a decent amount of time away. What do you do?

[Urist Imiknorris]

Urist: A question. You're scum, and you see a few townies going at each other while ignoring everyone else, with the end of the day still a decent amount of time away. What do you do?

Fan the flames. Ruthlessly question all of them until the town eventually decides to lynch one.

[Supercharazad]

Okay, so I'm here.

Borno[/b]:

What the hell is this? First you say that you are voting me 'Because of a small scumtell', but then you say that it is a 'Halfass Attempt at scumhunting'? A 'Halfassed attempt at scumhunting' is much worse than a 'Small Scumtell'! And now, now that I have answered all your questions, fixed my error (My answer would change if it was N1 instead), even found a 'Big Scumtell', yet you still hang onto my vote? And Jiokuy making a lousily hidden bandwagon vote against me starts to make me think that you and Jiokuy could be a scumteam.

Unvote, Vote Hapah.

So, you seem to be getting defensive. Angry. If I'm understanding all this correctly, you're voting him and suspecting another because they voted you? OMGUS.
Why are you so defensive about them, and trying to prevent yourself getting lynched as opposed to actually trying to get the scum lynched? Voting Hapah without proper reasons is making you very suspicious in my eyes. Assuming that because someone voted you, then another person did makes them both scum is bullshit. Or did you already know that, Mr.Scumbucket?

Give some proper reasons for voting them.

[Flying Dice]

Supercharazad brings up a good point, borno. It's suspicious of Hapah to go after you for scumhunting (unless he genuinely thought that you were pretending to scumhunt rather than doing so badly, but I've seen no indication of that), now that I read your responses again, you seem to be more concerned with redirecting suspicion onto Jiokuy, who apparently has given up on responding to questions. That scumteam assumption seems rather premature as well. In addition to that, when you responded to Hapah's OMGUS on you with a single line implying that he's taking instructions from someone. That does look like half-assed, unconcerned scumhunting to me, borno.


Supercharazad, your (previously Lord Allagon's) vote has been on borno since the third post of the game. Do you suspect him, or have you not found anyone you think is worth pressuring?

[Supercharazad]

Flying Dice, right now I'm still getting into this. I suspect him, but haven't yet seen too much suspicious activity in anyone else.

I suspect him very heavily right now though, and will continue to do so until he's answered the questions to my satisfaction.

[borno]

Unvote, Vote Hapah. You are mafia on D1. You haven't gotten a good read on the behavior of the town, except for a lurker. Do you NK the lurker, or a random towny?

Ha, I read the very first bit of your question and thought you were REALLY jumping the gun on calling me scum.  Random, if those are the only two options and I don't think the lurker is trying to fly low with a power role. Lurkers aren't a bad thing for scum, it's hard for them to find you if they don't go looking.  I can't help but notice your question is very similar to one I answered already, borno. Why is that? Did you miss it? I thought I had already made my night actions (and the reasoning behind them) as a scum reasonably clear.  borno: Answer the two questions posed to me, if you would.  Q1.)

@Hapah: It's D2. You are scum. There is a player aggressively attacking other players, and there is a lurker who has only posted twice in the actual game. Who do you kill?

Q2.) The question you asked me (quoted at the top of this post).

Q2) What would the point be in answering my own question? I will, if you insist, but only after you answer the revised version.

Now, he said one of his reasons for voting me was because I didn't answer this question, although he never asked me again.
In my eyes, him and Jiokuy were taking advantage of the one vote from the person asking for a replacement by voting for me. This, to me, is very suspicious. I mentioned it before in my previous post. I'm also voting for him in a big change of reasoning, from calling saying he votes me because of a 'small scumtell' and as you are saying now, a 'halfassed attempt at scumhunting'. And It smells kind of fishy on how, when Jiokuy dropped a scumtell, he still stuck on me for a 'small scumtell'

Okay, so I'm here.

Borno[/b]:

What the hell is this? First you say that you are voting me 'Because of a small scumtell', but then you say that it is a 'Halfass Attempt at scumhunting'? A 'Halfassed attempt at scumhunting' is much worse than a 'Small Scumtell'! And now, now that I have answered all your questions, fixed my error (My answer would change if it was N1 instead), even found a 'Big Scumtell', yet you still hang onto my vote? And Jiokuy making a lousily hidden bandwagon vote against me starts to make me think that you and Jiokuy could be a scumteam.

Unvote, Vote Hapah.

So, you seem to be getting defensive. Angry. If I'm understanding all this correctly, you're voting him and suspecting another because they voted you? OMGUS.
Why are you so defensive about them, and trying to prevent yourself getting lynched as opposed to actually trying to get the scum lynched? Voting Hapah without proper reasons is making you very suspicious in my eyes. Assuming that because someone voted you, then another person did makes them both scum is bullshit. Or did you already know that, Mr.Scumbucket?

Give some proper reasons for voting them.

Yes, I am getting angry. However, getting angry helps with aggressive scumhunting. Also, it's not an OMGUS, because he has had his vote on me for almost the whole game. Also, that's not being defensive. It's being aggressive. I'm attacking them aggressively because if I do, something may show up. And since I suspect them heavily, I will keep on attacking them until I get something out of it.

Flying dice, Why did you only show your suspicion to me after Supercharazad had posted? I didn't answer with just implying that he was taking directions from someone else, I answered with that he might be taking directions from someone else. Back then it was still RVS, and I was trying to get our argument going. The more heated an argument is, the more likely someone is to slip. Which, to me, he has.

[Urist Imiknorris]

borno, why do you suspect everyone who attacks you?