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Voting closed: April 07, 2013, 10:34:35 am

[Unholy_Pariah]

((Question: who killed the UE who you got that cloak from? Miyamoto did, with that expanding heat blade thing. Did Auron help in killing that man? Nope, Miya did it himself. The only reason Auron has that cloak is because he rushed over to grab everything he could back then.
Why would Auron get that cloak, instead of say Bishop, who was there to? And it's not like Auron needed to take any risk in collecting that cloak, it was literally just laying there. So what makes Auron deserve that cloak more than somebody else? Loot like those black boxes he can keep of course, that was all him and not really worth tokens anyway.

Also, I said it like 2 times before that we'd divide the loot (that's worth any tokens at least) and you never spoke out against it then, neither did you when I posted the token total previous 2 times. You only really just noticed?

As I explained before, the reason to pool loot like that is so there would be more to give to newbies and players who are never online at the right time to have a chance at looting anything, since PW does his actions in the order as they're posted. Without this there would be even less to go around.)

((I don't dispute that you killed him, what i dispute is that you can just instantly claim ownership of everything after the mission ended. killing him gave you first dibs on his loot but you ignored it despite posting twice before i woke up and then when i did loot it you made no mention of you desire to take ownership of the cloak. Bishop could have voiced his desire to loot it as well and i probably would have flipped him for it but the fact of the matter is that you both had your chance to claim it and you both missed it, end of story.

as for never responding i didn't bother reading it fully until now, i knew you'd have to post it after the briefing and bean counting isn't all that interesting to begin with.))

Edit: oh and if you recall during that fight i wanted to taser them but you killed them all first and bishop pinned me to the floor whilst holding a monorazor against my throat.

[Corsair]

"I am happy that my circumstances are considered... is there an 'armoury' of some sort that I can use these at?"
say above, follow directions if given

[Parisbre56]

((@Radio Controlled: I just realised there isn't something I really need to buy. I just want to buy a conventional decompensator when I have +2. So feel free to give my tokens and any bonus I get to someone else. If I need to buy a more powerful weapon for next mission I'll just use the team fund. Even though the hoarder inside me wants to sit on top of a pile of shiny tokens, I don't have much use for them right now.))

[GreatWyrmGold]

((What Kriellya said.
Also, I'm now comparing notable people to the leaders of the early Soviet Russia.
Steve = Marx
Miyamoto = Lenin
Caellath = Stalin
Jim = Bukharin
Er...I dunno who else. Still.))

((Grate = That random kid who hangs around the meetings))

((The second rule sounds good. The first...well, there should be a clause about reducing pay at the end of a mission to keep stuff you buy for it, but other than that great.))

((Problem is, you can then buy battlesuits for 20 fund token, then pay the AM 10 at mission end, and bam: battlesuit at half price. The whole picture is a little more complicated, with different overall pay for the others, but I think you see my point.))

((Why does this have to be the case? Aren't we making the rules?))

Big reason for the squabbling is that previously, it was a 'capitalist' system where there was plenty (since Steve was a bottomless pit of tokens), yet now it's a 'communist' system with a very limited amount to go around. In other news, being the bean counter when there isn't enough to go around is fun     ))

((I bet. I don't envy you.))

((When were we ever real capitalist? Equal distribution of common pay for all work definitely doesn't sound capitalist in any regard...))

((When was our pay ever equal?))

((I don't dispute that you killed him, what i dispute is that you can just instantly claim ownership of everything after the mission ended.

((Wrong. Radio/Miya (I don't remember if it was OOC or IC) specifically stated--multiple times--that loot would be pooled post-mission. Neither you nor Auron protested.))

killing him gave you first dibs on his loot but you ignored it despite posting twice before i woke up and then when i did loot it you made no mention of you desire to take ownership of the cloak. Bishop could have voiced his desire to loot it as well and i probably would have flipped him for it but the fact of the matter is that you both had your chance to claim it and you both missed it, end of story.

((He doesn't want it, he wants the group to have it. Is it really fair that magpies get twice the stuff everyone else does despite contributing half as much?))

as for never responding i didn't bother reading it fully until now, i knew you'd have to post it after the briefing and bean counting isn't all that interesting to begin with.))

((So, you're admitting that you did basically no work, not even reading the whole thread, yet you want to claim everything you got your little paws on despite being directly against the interests of the whole team and the ground rules previously set up?))

((Hey, BFEL, this guy's really hurting the ability of newbies to catch up.))

Edit: oh and if you recall during that fight i wanted to taser them but you killed them all first and bishop pinned me to the floor whilst holding a monorazor against my throat.

((Weren't you under the UE's control at that point?))

((@Radio Controlled: I just realised there isn't something I really need to buy. I just want to buy a conventional decompensator when I have +2. So feel free to give my tokens and any bonus I get to someone else. If I need to buy a more powerful weapon for next mission I'll just use the team fund. Even though the hoarder inside me wants to sit on top of a pile of shiny tokens, I don't have much use for them right now.))

((I'm in much the same position, except that I actually do need to buy something, I just don't have much idea what.
Well, I'm considering buying a kinetic amp and making a pill from it. They have little chip things that does the actual thing, right?))

[Unholy_Pariah]

((I don't dispute that you killed him, what i dispute is that you can just instantly claim ownership of everything after the mission ended.

((Wrong. Radio/Miya (I don't remember if it was OOC or IC) specifically stated--multiple times--that loot would be pooled post-mission. Neither you nor Auron protested.))

He stated this after i looted the cloak and never bothered to loot anything himself, i hold no respect for that declaration and felt it did not dignify a response.

killing him gave you first dibs on his loot but you ignored it despite posting twice before i woke up and then when i did loot it you made no mention of you desire to take ownership of the cloak. Bishop could have voiced his desire to loot it as well and i probably would have flipped him for it but the fact of the matter is that you both had your chance to claim it and you both missed it, end of story.

((He doesn't want it, he wants the group to have it. Is it really fair that magpies get twice the stuff everyone else does despite contributing half as much?))

If i hadnt looted it then it would have been abandoned and noone would be able to argue over it. Oh and that saying goes both ways, i was the only one who bothered to loot anything, why should i give away half my loot?
That isnt to say i wouldnt share with those in need, but i cannot be expected to support everyone by myself.

as for never responding i didn't bother reading it fully until now, i knew you'd have to post it after the briefing and bean counting isn't all that interesting to begin with.))

((So, you're admitting that you did basically no work, not even reading the whole thread, yet you want to claim everything you got your little paws on despite being directly against the interests of the whole team and the ground rules previously set up?))

((Hey, BFEL, this guy's really hurting the ability of newbies to catch up.))

((I admit to not bothering to read the OOC ramblings of a space accountant and nothing more, i still put forth every effort to complete my mission objectives to the best of Aurons abilities and even intended to donate some loot to the fund once i had determined everythings worth, what and if i donated were not radios decisions to make.

And no im not hurting the ability of the newbies, you seem to have forgotten that the cloak may well be worthless unless repaired, is estimated at only two tokens in which one is mine and finally the laser rifles and tokens i gave out prior to the mission to those who asked me for them.))

Edit: oh and if you recall during that fight i wanted to taser them but you killed them all first and bishop pinned me to the floor whilst holding a monorazor against my throat.

((Weren't you under the UE's control at that point?))

((No i rolled a 6 on my will save, i was completely fine and intent on being useful.))

[Sean Mirrsen]

((The current system will work well enough once proper missions start. Right now was just a very unfair stress-test. The people on the gangway basically had no mission at all, so them getting paid at all is mostly all a bonus.

Also, something to consider. How do the payouts change if you actually take into account the different mission funds? I.e., the JiMiya team had its own fund (that Jim took 15 token out of), the defense team its own fund, and the Milno team was entirely sponsored? Pooling returns per team is fine, but pooling different team funds is kinda wrong, isn't it?

Also also -  I think that looting everything not bolted down isn't a very nice thing to do, considering that other people might be occupied with more mission-important things. Therefore, this new system meaning that all loot goes to the team as a whole is actually a step up in fairness, in my opinion.))

[piecewise]

Yeah, joker's money shouldn't come from that budget, so redistribute it as you want. With their bonuses, people who were actually active should probably be getting around that standard 5 or more. I'm trying to Reign in the Token inflation and make it so that actions actually have greater financial impact, with the effects somewhat softened by the team budget.

[Caellath]

((The pooling up of loot is fair because it is an incentive for people to actually help instead of acting like a magpie. Otherwise, the magpies would be favored in detriment of the players who decided to focus on the mission. It is rather simple and obvious logic.

That system was explained several times and that's it.))

Milno stretches, glancing at the direction of the "touching" reunion happening close by. "Well, I mostly led the group around like a pack of retarded moles after we got our main objective done - but we did get it done and we kept moving, so that's something. Hey, Steve. Faith was helpful but she was acting like a zombie; has she gotten any better and is she getting rewarded like the rest of the team?"

Do I get the same bonus as Simus due to services rendered? And question.

And accept the 2 tokens from Pancaek.

[Empiricist]

((@Xantalos, could you please return the two ClF₃ rounds? The more bullets in the magazine, the more effective it is as an explosive.))

[Xantalos]

((...where'd I leave those again? I think those were with my old body.))

[Empiricist]

((Oh. If you can't find them that's okay. Well for us at least, not so much for the unfortunates who accidentally set those off a few years from now.))

[Knight Otu]

"Well, I'd split mine with you, Gorat, but one token does not divide.."

"Heh. Wouldn't particularly help, either."

Spoiler: Gorat 'Chin' Ivanos (click to show/hide)

Str 3; Dex 3; End 3; Cha 5; Int 4; Wil 12//Spe 0; Int 1; Han 0 (-1); Con 1; Unc 0; Exo 8; Aux 1 (+1); Med 0
Mk II Suit; Microwave PK Amp; laser rifle: normal cigarettes; blue smokes; datapad (with platformer shooter); nanoghosts; shock trigger (with me, right now)
Appearance: 5'11'', 170 pounds in a rather unmuscular frame, shoulder-long brown hair, short goatee, brown eyes, a rather long chin that earned him his nickname. Age 32
Half a robot foot. Robot right arm.

[GreatWyrmGold]

((I don't dispute that you killed him, what i dispute is that you can just instantly claim ownership of everything after the mission ended.

((Wrong. Radio/Miya (I don't remember if it was OOC or IC) specifically stated--multiple times--that loot would be pooled post-mission. Neither you nor Auron protested.))

He stated this after i looted the cloak and never bothered to loot anything himself, i hold no respect for that declaration and felt it did not dignify a response.

((I wasn't paying that much attention, but from what RC said it sounded like this happened before the mission really got underway. Besides, if you think someone is wrong, you should say so. I've seen it time and time again--okay, mostly read about it happening, but I've seen it some--where X does something no one else likes, no one else speaks up, so X doesn't realize there's a problem until it's too late.))

killing him gave you first dibs on his loot but you ignored it despite posting twice before i woke up and then when i did loot it you made no mention of you desire to take ownership of the cloak. Bishop could have voiced his desire to loot it as well and i probably would have flipped him for it but the fact of the matter is that you both had your chance to claim it and you both missed it, end of story.

((He doesn't want it, he wants the group to have it. Is it really fair that magpies get twice the stuff everyone else does despite contributing half as much?))

If i hadnt looted it then it would have been abandoned and noone would be able to argue over it. Oh and that saying goes both ways, i was the only one who bothered to loot anything, why should i give away half my loot?
That isnt to say i wouldnt share with those in need, but i cannot be expected to support everyone by myself.

((What did you do to deserve the loot? Is the guy who hangs back from the fights and takes the loot anyways really a team player? And how do you know no one else would have looted it?
Besides which, let's consider the system you're proposing. The people who do the mission-critical stuff--Miyamoto, or Jim, or the only guy with a gun, armor, and firearms skills on a hypothetical combat mission, or the only guy with computer skills on some kind of infiltration--don't have time to loot. The people like Auron, and hypothetically people like STEPHEN HAWKING* and Grate, don't have as much to do, so between firefights they can pick the corpses clean. This system rewards people who are doing stuff to help the mission maybe half or two-thirds of the time and being selfish the rest, while penalizing people who are actually focused on getting the mission objectives accomplished.
Your behavior is reminding me of a certain kind of MMORPG griefing, incidentally. Last to fight, first to pick lewt.))

((*He invented griefing, but at least he has the character not to do so. Intentionally.))

as for never responding i didn't bother reading it fully until now, i knew you'd have to post it after the briefing and bean counting isn't all that interesting to begin with.))

((So, you're admitting that you did basically no work, not even reading the whole thread, yet you want to claim everything you got your little paws on despite being directly against the interests of the whole team and the ground rules previously set up?))

((Hey, BFEL, this guy's really hurting the ability of newbies to catch up.))

((I admit to not bothering to read the OOC ramblings of a space accountant and nothing more, i still put forth every effort to complete my mission objectives to the best of Aurons abilities and even intended to donate some loot to the fund once i had determined everythings worth, what and if i donated were not radios decisions to make.

((It was the decision of the group. If people don't agree with RC's suggestion, they should speak up. And look at token distributions. We're not giving out stuff for effort, we're giving it according to result. And some for need. Really, Auron doesn't have much of either.))

And no im not hurting the ability of the newbies, you seem to have forgotten that the cloak may well be worthless unless repaired, is estimated at only two tokens in which one is mine and finally the laser rifles and tokens i gave out prior to the mission to those who asked me for them.))

((Congratulations on the last effort. The first points don't negate that you're still preventing the newbies from getting a full slice of the pie.))

Edit: oh and if you recall during that fight i wanted to taser them but you killed them all first and bishop pinned me to the floor whilst holding a monorazor against my throat.

((Weren't you under the UE's control at that point?))

((No i rolled a 6 on my will save, i was completely fine and intent on being useful.))

((Oh. How long was it since that happened?))


((And, for the record, if anyone explains to Grate why Miyamoto and the others are beating up Auron to take his cloak, he'll help. He knows that sharing is important! ...Okay, he'll probably just be a cheerleader, maybe a bullet sponge, but hey.))


((Also, did any of Grate's gear he had on him survive the crushing?))

[Radio Controlled]

((I don't dispute that you killed him, what i dispute is that you can just instantly claim ownership of everything after the mission ended. killing him gave you first dibs on his loot but you ignored it despite posting twice before i woke up and then when i did loot it you made no mention of you desire to take ownership of the cloak. Bishop could have voiced his desire to loot it as well and i probably would have flipped him for it but the fact of the matter is that you both had your chance to claim it and you both missed it, end of story.
as for never responding i didn't bother reading it fully until now, i knew you'd have to post it after the briefing and bean counting isn't all that interesting to begin with.))
Edit: oh and if you recall during that fight i wanted to taser them but you killed them all first and bishop pinned me to the floor whilst holding a monorazor against my throat.

He stated this after i looted the cloak and never bothered to loot anything himself, i hold no respect for that declaration and felt it did not dignify a response.

((I actually went back to check, and I think I found the source of our little problem: what you said there isn't true. Or, more precisely, it isn't the whole truth: PW said the there was literally nothing of value on the UE's body or anywhere on that level after we checked that as a team, all of us at the same time. Yet that broken cloak still showed up in your inventory, so I assumed it was still worth something and included it in the total. Had PW told us at the time that cloak was still worth something, you can be damn sure I would've claimed it for the team fund right there. Pw didn't speak against that cloak and Michael's former cloak being worth 2 tokens, so I assumed that was their approximate worth.

And dude, reading that summary of the counting takes a minute at most. Don't be lazy. Also, you could stand to be a bit more relaxed about this whole affair, instead of 'not bothering to read the OOC ramblings of a space accountant'. Remember, this is just a game, and that I'm making these decisions in-game as Miyamoto, I'm just posting it OOC so it's easier to discuss these things like that.

Lastly, our mission to capture the command room was on a timer, yet Auron kept looking for shinies even when there was other, more pressing work to do. That's not even really debatable, in the link I posted Miya and Bishop were working on a way to get up, he was stuffing corpses in his backpack for his own use later on.
Believe me when I say I'm not doing this to harm or bully you, because a system of dividing loot would be detrimental to people like Miyamoto the most, since he can score lots of kills and take more risks with his superarmor. I'm doing this to make it more fair for everybody, newbies especially.

But you know what? Let's meet in the middle here: I'll include that cloak in the inventory, but you have first dibs on it. If that still isn't ok with you, then YOU will have to tell me where to get those 2 tokens, aka whom to take those tokens away from.

((@Radio Controlled: I just realised there isn't something I really need to buy. I just want to buy a conventional decompensator when I have +2. So feel free to give my tokens and any bonus I get to someone else. If I need to buy a more powerful weapon for next mission I'll just use the team fund. Even though the hoarder inside me wants to sit on top of a pile of shiny tokens, I don't have much use for them right now.))

((Very generous of you. But with the way I had to redo the count, I'll just give you your pay, and then you can decide for yourself who you want to give your tokens to. My advice though would be to keep those tokens, cause decomps are hella expensive. You could still loan tokens to people if you aren't using them anytime soon.))

Also, something to consider. How do the payouts change if you actually take into account the different mission funds? I.e., the JiMiya team had its own fund (that Jim took 15 token out of), the defense team its own fund, and the Milno team was entirely sponsored? Pooling returns per team is fine, but pooling different team funds is kinda wrong, isn't it?

((A very valid point indeed, but then how about that re-organisation we did mid-mission? How do we take that into account? Really, I did it like this to keep it easy to manage and keep my sanity    ))

((Actual post with pay in next post))

[Sean Mirrsen]

((A very valid point indeed, but then how about that re-organisation we did mid-mission? How do we take that into account? Really, I did it like this to keep it easy to manage and keep my sanity    ))

((Actual post with pay in next post))

((Reorganization is fine, but I don't think there was any sharing of purchased gear, or loot that wasn't from either team's suddenly dead members, post-merge. It should be pretty straightforward - can you try calculating a split again and see how it works with separate funds? I know the Defense team will get even less this way - a lot of the fund got used and there are many people, but at least it'll be fair to everyone.))