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Total Members Voted: 0

Voting closed: April 07, 2013, 10:34:35 am

[Empiricist]

((Perhaps rather than simply arguing subjective opinions, we should get PW to do a poll? It seems like a simpler solution.))

[GreatWyrmGold]

Gwg I'm just going to not answer at all because you've clearly not understood the point I was trying to make the slightest bit and I don't see any value in continuing a pointless argument.
When exactly did I say 30 missions? Or 25 tokens? Pretty sure I never mentioned either of them especially since the game has only ran what 11 missions making 30 impossible.

Notice what I quoted:

And the budget system is not likely to include 150+ tokens for you to spend on equipment so older players who have high end personal equipment are certainly going to have a massive edge in that regard.

This implies that you think that older players would have an edge of well over a hundred tokens, whereas I highly doubt that any player's total worth over all time has reached that value, including the value of their vital organs..

[Patrick Hunt]

And you've completely missed the point of what I said there as well. It had nothing to do with the value players might have reached or the edge they might have. Like I said, you missed the entire point of my entire argument and I'm done arguing this point.

[GreatWyrmGold]

And you've completely missed the point of what I said there as well. It had nothing to do with the value players might have reached or the edge they might have. Like I said, you missed the entire point of my entire argument and I'm done arguing this point.

Alright, firstly I was arguing against that specific statement with that specific counter-argument. Don't pick one isolated counterargument for one isolated claim you made and say it's my whole argument.

[Radio Controlled]

Mission token budget idea

((I like it. I like it a lot, and for several reasons:

1) It adds complexity, not the bad look-crap-up-in-endless-charts-with-calculator-within-reach, but the good kind, the kind that makes you brood and doubt and reconsider whether to use a lot of tokens on extra gear, or to take your chances and risk not being adequately equipped for the mission.
It creates a situation where 2 emotions, greed versus fear, have to be balanced. Greed, as in the promise for more tokens, versus the fear of not being ready to face the cosmic horrors PW throws at you. I like the idea of that.

2) Something I already thought was 'unbalanced' with the token system before, but never brought up because it seemed rather unsolvable, is that single-use items will get used more often. Before, people wouldn't invest in stuff like grenades, nukes, medical supplies and others because, while potentially helpful, it was very doubtful you would get as much 'return' on your investment as opposed to, say, buying a better suit for yourself. If, for example, you buy some grenades but you throw them at the wrong moment you're practically pissing away valuable tokens. With this however, you can keep investing your personal tokens in 'upgrades' while using mission tokens for expendables, like spending 2 mission tokens on a crate of smoke bombs and dividing these among the team.


However, I agree that letting team leaders divide remaining tokens at end of the mission might not be the best idea. While I'm 100% sure Caellath and SC wouldn't play favorites, I can understand the concern. (As for myself, any bribing proposals, ass-kissing or threats can be send at corruption4life@yahoo.com).

Therefore, I propose we use this for dividing tokens:
at end of mission, all equipment bought with mission tokens get returned at resale value (not full value), these are added to tokens not used before the mission.
This pool gets evenly divided amongst players.
Total pay would then be: base pay (could be current 5, doesn't have to be, could vary on mission length/difficulty. Mostly so even newbs or people who had unexpected real life stuff can progress a little) + part of mission token pool + bonus from Steve based on mission performance
Or, if the mission token budget is a bit too high, it could be: base pay + part of mission token pool, Steve decides how much you get out of this pool.
This way, we still get the greed/fear mechanic, while making sure there is no friend-politics involved.
Well, except when the budget has to be divided in the beginning of the mission, that I think should remain with the players.
(Yes, I'm advocating that my character doesn't get the easily-abused extra power.
Now where's my damn medal )

[Lenglon]

((good idea))

((this is a good idea))

[Patrick Hunt]

Wow GWG, just wow way to miss understand everything I say.

Your entire counter argument starting multiple messages ago is based on arguing things I never actually said because you read my words and took the complete wrong meaning from them.

Now back to my original point, I'm done arguing so please just drop it rather then continue pushing an argument I am trying to drop.

[Sean Mirrsen]

((Patrick, if you find the concept of being statistically outdone by people who have spent more time on the game than you discouraging - stay away from MMORPGs.

ER at least has a system where a newbie can, conceivably, still hurt and maybe even kill a veteran player, as a lucky Gauss rifle shot to the head can still happen, and city-destroying mass murder manipulators are three token a pop. That's right. With a modicum of intelligence (the stat, not IRL), you can kill even, say, Jim, with a three-token magic calculator. Or maybe not Jim... well, you'd have to get lucky there.

Point is, the system is made in such a way that being in the game longer gives diminishing returns. If you survive your first mission or two and aren't a complete paperweight, you will pretty much be already on tactical par with most of the crew. If you're afraid to play because you can't be as good as everyone else, well... don't? I mean, Anton is not as good as everyone else. He started out as a clumsy recluse with technician skills. Half of his original VR projects were failures. During VR field testing of his first combat weapon prototype, his first shot hit and almost killed himself. Well, his other self. There were three of him. Er, where was I? Since then, he's never hit a hostile target he was aiming at, and he spent most of the year on the planetoid sitting or walking around and mostly doing nothing of note - lost first his hands, then a leg, and even required a team effort to be rescued by the veterans.

But I know how I want to play him, and even though he's in all likelihood still mostly useless in combat (the manipulator should help with that) compared to the long-runners, I do enjoy letting him be what he is. You're not here to be better than everyone else. You're here to try to become that, and be what you want to be in the meantime.

Ye gods, I am giving a speech on roleplay. ME. I've barely ever roleplayed before I signed up for ER!))

[Doomblade187]

((One thing I like about ER is how being in-game longer and amassing more power means you have to be more careful with your gear and rolls. For example, I have I potential +2 on Uncon. Now, were I to roll an 8 with my monoatomic sword, the magnitude of the overshoot would be terrible, especially considering the nature of the weapon. As such, more powerful players have to spend MORE money on preventing accidents than new players, in most cases- It almost feels safer to use the microwave amp (that I can now use the budget for- more money for a decompensator) without bonuses than a monoatomic sword with massive bonuses to it. Speaking of which, this makes me want a new melee weapon that I'm less likely to kill myself with. But anyway. Yeah.))

[Patrick Hunt]

Oh for the love of.

I never said I have a problem with not being as good as others at the start, I even specifically said multiple times in the last few days I'm happy to go on suicide missions that I know will likely kill me because I'm weak, hell I wanted to go with one of the team now even though my odds of survival on those jobs are probably less then 10% given what the jobs are. I have no issues with being weak in the game. Thats why I decided to ask the doc to turn me into a mutant freak and spent my tokens on a box that could give me a doomsday weapon, or some used toilet paper.

The whole point of my argument was that I wanted to know how team leaders will balance the payment after missions to factor in new players diminished odds of performing equally or better then veteran players. Thats all, not a complicated point at all so will people please stop reading things in what I say that are not there. If your not sure what I meant then please just ask me to clarify before you assume. Assumptions are the mother of all fuck ups.

Then it's been turned into a massive argument by people reading what I say and taking the complete wrong meaning away from it then trying to force what they think I meant down my throat so they can argue it despite the fact that it is not what I said or meant at all.

I give up I'm just going to stop giving opinions at all.

[Doomblade187]

Oh for the love of.

I never said I have a problem with not being as good as others at the start, I even specifically said multiple times in the last few days I'm happy to go on suicide missions that I know will likely kill me because I'm weak, hell I wanted to go with one of the team now even though my odds of survival on those jobs are probably less then 10% given what the jobs are. I have no issues with being weak in the game. Thats why I decided to ask the doc to turn me into a mutant freak and spent my tokens on a box that could give me a doomsday weapon, or some used toilet paper.

The whole point of my argument was that I wanted to know how team leaders will balance the payment after missions to factor in new players diminished odds of performing equally or better then veteran players. Thats all, not a complicated point at all so will people please stop reading things in what I say that are not there. If your not sure what I meant then please just ask me to clarify before you assume. Assumptions are the mother of all fuck ups.

Then it's been turned into a massive argument by people reading what I say and taking the complete wrong meaning away from it then trying to force what they think I meant down my throat so they can argue it despite the fact that it is not what I said or meant at all.

((I wasn't responding to you, for the record. I started out to do so, but then went off on a random rant instead. So if it resembles a reply to your arguement, it wasn't really intentional.

I'll be quiet now.))

[Patrick Hunt]

I was responding to Sean not you Doom so no worries, should have titled my post.

[Radio Controlled]

This implies that you think that older players would have an edge of well over a hundred tokens, whereas I highly doubt that any player's total worth over all time has reached that value, including the value of their vital organs..

((Vital organs are hugely overvalued, according to my Chinese sources.))



((@ discussion: It is true that more veteran players will always have an edge in terms of what they can do, they will usually have more flexibility and options than a rookie. And you know what? That's a good thing! Because if they didn't, there would be no way for a character to grow and become stronger.

Sure, on your first mission as a rookie with a laser rifle with a crappy Mk I, the sight of exoskeleton-wielding, high-caliber gun toting, flying veterans will feel intimidating or discouraging. But as long as you're persistent, not a complete idiot, and a little lucky, within a few missions you will be the powerful bastard punching people into pulp.

Also, remember that if a veteran character dies, he takes with him all his experience and equipment, so that player will have to start all over again. No respawns, no reclaiming part of your loot, if you die then several months of playing time will go down the drain. So discovering the game earlier is no guarantee to have more power.))

[GreatWyrmGold]

Wow GWG, just wow way to miss understand everything I say.

Your entire counter argument starting multiple messages ago is based on arguing things I never actually said because you read my words and took the complete wrong meaning from them.

Well, explain why you said what you said. Why did you say that a 150+-token-per-person mission budget would be needed to overcome the equipment disparity between veterans and newbies?

Oh for the love of.
I never said I have a problem with not being as good as others at the start, I even specifically said multiple times in the last few days I'm happy to go on suicide missions that I know will likely kill me because I'm weak, hell I wanted to go with one of the team now even though my odds of survival on those jobs are probably less then 10% given what the jobs are. I have no issues with being weak in the game. Thats why I decided to ask the doc to turn me into a mutant freak and spent my tokens on a box that could give me a doomsday weapon, or some used toilet paper.
The whole point of my argument was that I wanted to know how team leaders will balance the payment after missions to factor in new players diminished odds of performing equally or better then veteran players. Thats all, not a complicated point at all so will people please stop reading things in what I say that are not there. If your not sure what I meant then please just ask me to clarify before you assume. Assumptions are the mother of all fuck ups.
Then it's been turned into a massive argument by people reading what I say and taking the complete wrong meaning away from it then trying to force what they think I meant down my throat so they can argue it despite the fact that it is not what I said or meant at all.
I give up I'm just going to stop giving opinions at all.

((Keep giving opinions, just stop giving the impression of the opposite opinion.))

[wolfchild]

((Wow, 3 new pages on waking up, all about the new payment system.

I personally quite like it, although I think since we are now a military outfit rather than death row, that mission budget should be spent on mk2s for people that don't have them or better (would not say that if I was not already poised to purchase one, it would seem self serving), and then the cost for the mk2s would come out of their payment, because frankly mk2s seem to be basically a required item at this point.  Although that is more about how the team chooses to spend the budget, rather than something to do with the system))