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Total Members Voted: 0

Voting closed: April 07, 2013, 10:34:35 am

[Patrick Hunt]

If a mission is run with only newbies then sure. What are the odds your gonna get 10 equally newbie players in one team for a mission?

Even a single mission more then the rest of the team gives you an enormous edge running on the new system and there ain't that many brand new players so your gonna wind up with veterans mixed in which brings it right back to the veterans easily out performing the newbies and thus getting far higher payment.

Just looking at the new system from the perspective of people with only basic stats and kit it's horrifically biased against new players. For a team of equals then sure payment based on actions and results is perfectly fair. This game has 0 hope of ever running with teams of equals meaning this system will always favor the more experienced players unless you give them reduced pay and give newer players increased pay or a lot of bonuses for things which of course then causes resentment from more experienced players.

[Empiricist]

((The mission had three veterans. Two of them were members of the original five. I don't see Feyri breathing. I don't see her body for that matter. Hell, Charles, a character oh so horrifically biased in favor of speech and charisma survived unscathed while Feyri, a well-armed, well-equipped veteran lost her body. I'd personally think that it isn't very unbalanced...))

[Patrick Hunt]

Random chances. I'm looking at it based purely on odds from nothing but guaranteed facts meaning stats and personal equipment.

Looking at it without including peoples behavior which will change constantly the new system is biased against new players and in favor of experienced players. Stating random examples that happened before and you have no way to actually prove will happen again doesn't effect the odds.

[Empiricist]

((Personal equipment is easy to procure, you can get a loan or prototype something. Plus the new system is more balanced than the old system due to the burdget allocation allowing more even equipment distribution. Stat growth is quite slow so veterans won't have very high bonuses relative to everyone and can still die as easily as other characters.))

[Patrick Hunt]

Budget distribution is all fine I like that system assuming we end up with teams that will work together and not just try to grab every advantage they can for themselves. But hopefully good team leaders can prevent that and for the most part they seem good so far.

It's payment after the mission thats the problem, will it be balanced to factor in newbies inferior equipment and skill ranks? Otherwise the more missions you've been on the higher your payment is likely to be.
You can't expect a player with 1-2 missions to perform as well as a player with 6-7 but that should not result in said player with 1-2 missions getting a smaller payment. It's hardly his fault he joint the game later.

The point I'm trying to make is leaders will have to balance it out to allow payment to be done fairly, hoping somebody will loan you a tone of credits or that something you design will be accepted for a prototype is entirely based on random luck at the time. Not really a good way to keep it fair.

[Parisbre56]

((Don't forget overshoots. Veterans have a higher chance for those and most of the time they end up being worse than a failure. So a veteran might have better equipment, but he may be so good at using it that he ends up doing more harm than good.))

[Patrick Hunt]

Possible but the veteran still has better odds of performing well then a new player does. I factored in potential for overshoots when I worked it out.

[Patrick Hunt]

Possible but the veteran still has better odds of performing well then a new player does. I factored in potential for overshoots when I worked it out.

[Empiricist]

((Actually, I suspect that equipment won't matter too much. Since budget is likely to be allocated fairly, newbies won't have inferior equipment since they would have received a fair share of the mission budget. Skills don't seem to matter as much as tactics do in ER judging by how the rolls can quite brutal, after all, unless someone has a piece of defensive equipment designed to do so, high stats don't prevent high velocity pieces of metal from perforating people. Loans can be acquired relatively easy assuming the person being asked isn't on a mission and is the sort of character who would do so, while prototypes tend to be approved as long as they fill a niches that is not filled by anything else and is practical enough in terms of cost and complexity.))

[Parisbre56]

((And shouldn't veterans be better and be rewarded better? They played longer, they deserve it. After all, what's the point of having level ups if everybody ends up being equal to each other? Many RPGs work that way.))

[Patrick Hunt]

I know they do, but isn't that a little like punishing new players for joining the game after you did? I wasn't even on the forum when 3/4 of the players joint. So I'm going to need far longer then any of them 3/4 did to improve because those 3/4 had a guaranteed number of tokens after every mission then got paid based on what they'd done. The old payment system was a lot fairer on new players.

Unless my mutations give me some serious boosts and I get something very nice out of my box then it leaves me at a disadvantage in terms of payment for missions purely because I'm new in the game. Hence why I said it'd need some way to balance it to give newbies a chance to get better equipment to catch up with veterans.

And the budget system is not likely to include 150+ tokens for you to spend on equipment so older players who have high end personal equipment are certainly going to have a massive edge in that regard.

In effect I've come into the game just in time for the things that gave new players a fighting chance to be removed.
But I give up, my point obviously isn't going to be accepted with the current attitude of being a veteran makes you a more important player.

[Empiricist]

((As long as your character doesn't do something really dumb or just does nothing they should still get payment, it seems that the token allocation penalties are for being a burden for the team and thus undeserving of tokens, if they contribute, they'll probably get an acceptable amount of tokens. And while veterans have higher stats, stats only go so far. Lasers and supersonic pieces of lead can't be dodged and endurance doesn't do much if they get hit.))

[Caellath]

That reminds me, Hey, Milno, You chosen the two of your four who are going to help you here in a bit?

((Faith and...Hnmm. Still deciding.))

[GreatWyrmGold]

If a mission is run with only newbies then sure. What are the odds your gonna get 10 equally newbie players in one team for a mission?

Even a single mission more then the rest of the team gives you an enormous edge running on the new system and there ain't that many brand new players so your gonna wind up with veterans mixed in which brings it right back to the veterans easily out performing the newbies and thus getting far higher payment.

((Compare, say, Grate to any of the brand newbies. Grate is good, if his specific skills are needed. If not? He's very nearly dead weight. Really, one mission doesn't make nearly as much a difference as your character's personality and specializations.))

((The mission had three veterans. Two of them were members of the original five. I don't see Feyri breathing. I don't see her body for that matter. Hell, Charles, a character oh so horrifically biased in favor of speech and charisma survived unscathed while Feyri, a well-armed, well-equipped veteran lost her body. I'd personally think that it isn't very unbalanced...))

((Three of the people who I'm sure were complete newbies--Xan, Lyra, and Grate--came out unscathed. Luck plays a huge role [pun intended] as well.))

Random chances. I'm looking at it based purely on odds from nothing but guaranteed facts meaning stats and personal equipment.

((So, you're ignoring the empirical for the theoretical? You're ignoring how easily a few die rolls can put someone with over an RL year of missions so amazingly far below those with no experience, and assuming that someone with a single mission under their belt is going to be incredibly more powerful than someone with none?))

Possible but the veteran still has better odds of performing well then a new player does. I factored in potential for overshoots when I worked it out.

((I'd like to see the math. And then I'd point out how likely things not going according to the average would be.))

((And shouldn't veterans be better and be rewarded better? They played longer, they deserve it. After all, what's the point of having level ups if everybody ends up being equal to each other? Many RPGs work that way.))

((Another consideration. Experienced employees of real-life groups get paid better. Aside from that, they've also invested orders of magnitude more time and effort into this game than most newbies. Stephen Hawking hasn't done squat, whereas the veterans seem to be using most turns of their on-ship time improving their knowledge, equipment, selves, or whatever. Or at least using Tinker to try and do so.))

And the budget system is not likely to include 150+ tokens for you to spend on equipment so older players who have high end personal equipment are certainly going to have a massive edge in that regard.

((No one has been on 30 missions; I don't think anyone's been on more than half a dozen, and the mean payment for them has NOT been 25+ tokens. No one has that kind of advantage.))

In effect I've come into the game just in time for the things that gave new players a fighting chance to be removed.

((Actually, the changes you're worried about, A haven't happened, B require player malice, and C are ones the GM has said he'd prevent.))

[Patrick Hunt]

True, but for any actions taken a veterans are gonna be better then mine. Puts me in kind of a bad position unless people are guaranteed a specific payment just for taking part and not causing major issues.

But I'm done trying to make my point it's a waste of time.


Gwg I'm just going to not answer at all because you've clearly not understood the point I was trying to make the slightest bit and I don't see any value in continuing a pointless argument.
When exactly did I say 30 missions? Or 25 tokens? Pretty sure I never mentioned either of them especially since the game has only ran what 11 missions making 30 impossible.