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Voting closed: April 07, 2013, 10:34:35 am

[Parisbre56]

((Stupid 504s))

[Caellath]

I was planning to use it as a thrusting weapon. Put the amp between the haft and head - ergo, the force shunting forward from the haft gets squared and pushed forwards into the head.

((IIRC, piecewise already talked about a project like that - in fact, it may even have been when I was testing the feasibility of a kinetic amp-boosted flying lance charge. He said that the head would have high chances of simply being disintegrated upon contact with the target even if it inflicted damage unless it was made of extremely resilient material.

In short, using the k.amp as the head itself would be the best option, since it'd achieve direct contact with the thing you want to destroy.))

[Lenglon]

multiplies force vs multiplies kinetic energy

((kinetic amps multiply force, not kinetic energy, not velocity, not inertia, etc. in most cases, the force it multiplies is the force of impact. when you punch someone, without the amp, there is a pair of equal and opposite forces that act upon both your hand and your target, causing your hand to not phase through the physical object in front of it, and causing the target physical trauma. well, with a kinetic amp, you still get the force that stops your hand from phasing through something (the "normal force", and I mean that as the physics term), un-multiplied, but the previously equal and opposite force, the initial force of your punch, gets squared. now then, the reason your punches go through the target, rather than reaching them and stopping? because the transfer of energy is not instantaneous. eventually enough force is transferred to the target that the target gives and your fist (and the amp) now have some space in front of it opened up for it to move. so naturally it does and then reapplies the impact force essentially instantaneously, wipe rinse repeat until the target's entire body has exploded away from your advancing arm and your arm is passing through empty air.))

((does that make sense?))

[Sean Mirrsen]

multiplies force vs multiplies kinetic energy

((kinetic amps multiply force, not kinetic energy, not velocity, not inertia, etc. in most cases, the force it multiplies is the force of impact. when you punch someone, without the amp, there is a pair of equal and opposite forces that act upon both your hand and your target, causing your hand to not phase through the physical object in front of it, and causing the target physical trauma. well, with a kinetic amp, you still get the force that stops your hand from phasing through something (the "normal force", and I mean that as the physics term), un-multiplied, but the previously equal and opposite force, the initial force of your punch, gets squared. now then, the reason your punches go through the target, rather than reaching them and stopping? because the transfer of energy is not instantaneous. eventually enough force is transferred to the target that the target gives and your fist (and the amp) now have some space in front of it opened up for it to move. so naturally it does and then reapplies the impact force essentially instantaneously, wipe rinse repeat until the target's entire body has exploded away from your advancing arm and your arm is passing through empty air.))

((does that make sense?))

((Doesn't ring true for the amp. It's an automanipulator, essentially, and I think it just does what it does. It breaks conservation of momentum. What it does is instantaneous, and the target exploding away from you is just the affected region shooting forward, crumpling the target and transferring all of the kinetic energy into it as the target allows, much like a bullet - except the bullet in this case is a part of the target itself.

Also, there is no definition for "force of impact". "Force" is a generic thing, and the "force of impact" is just impulse, the transfer of momentum, of kinetic energy. More accurately, the change in momentum as defined by the mass of the impactor and the change in velocity over a short period of time. The "sudden stop" at the end of a strike. The closest definition for it is "kinetic energy", the amount of energy that a moving object possesses in relation to the target. There are subtle differences across all possible definitions, but the kin-amp multiplies the kinetic energy transferred through it. Simple as that.

Also, Anton seems to be doing nothing productive for now. <_<))

[Zako]

((So, to basically sum up the amp argument/discussion: It's space magic that makes you hit things harder. A lot harder.

Also, I think it adds a lot more force than just squaring the amount that it started with. I recall in, I think it was mission 7 (it was the one with the robot city) where a dude with an amp punched a huge robot that weighed tons in the leg and it shifted a whole half a meter. That's a lot more than just squaring the starting energy I think.))

[Lenglon]

((you do realize that kinetic energy is conceptual, and not a real thing, right? how much "kinetic energy" an object "has" is variable depending on your frame of reference. that "transfer of energy" you're talking about is a force applied by object A upon object B, paired with the normal force applied from object B upon object A. how much momentum an object has is also variable, depending upon your frame of reference, and the way you're describing impacts as a whole is insane, because you're assuming all energy is transferred instantaneously. you're also assuming that the entire mass of an object is behind the object's impacts, and that objects have no flexibility. strikes do NOT have a sudden stop, if that ever happened, your hand would disintegrate because the energy transferred over zero time is a divide by zero situation leading to infinite acceleration and infinite force being applied.

in other words, you forgot that stuff is squishy, and that kinetic energy isn't a real thing))

[Zako]

((SPACE MAGIC! That's all there is to this!

And I was right, it's not squaring the energy, it's increasing it exponentially. Ouch.))

[Toaster]

((They work by the will of Steve.  All praise his name.  Amen.))

[Sean Mirrsen]

((So, to basically sum up the amp argument/discussion: It's space magic that makes you hit things harder. A lot harder.

Also, I think it adds a lot more force than just squaring the amount that it started with. I recall in, I think it was mission 7 (it was the one with the robot city) where a dude with an amp punched a huge robot that weighed tons in the leg and it shifted a whole half a meter. That's a lot more than just squaring the starting energy I think.))

((It makes you hit harder, but loses efficiency the harder you hit. And that was half PW embellishing the results for dramatic purposes, and half, I don't know, just plain physics? A man putting his bodymass behind a punch can bring perhaps twenty to thirty kilograms of force to bear, or something like that. Let's take ten. Squaring ten kilograms of force, a hundred newton-seconds of kinetic energy, gives you ten thousand newtons of force. Enough to, what, lift a ton of material a meter off the ground at one gee? Accelerate it to one meter per second? Can't be bothered to look up formulas at the moment. So it's within plausibility.))

((you do realize that kinetic energy is conceptual, and not a real thing, right? how much "kinetic energy" an object "has" is variable depending on your frame of reference. that "transfer of energy" you're talking about is a force applied by object A upon object B, paired with the normal force applied from object B upon object A. how much momentum an object has is also variable, depending upon your frame of reference, and the way you're describing impacts as a whole is insane, because you're assuming all energy is transferred instantaneously. you're also assuming that the entire mass of an object is behind the object's impacts, and that objects have no flexibility. strikes do NOT have a sudden stop, if that ever happened, your hand would disintegrate because the energy transferred over zero time is a divide by zero situation leading to infinite acceleration and infinite force being applied.

in other words, you forgot that stuff is squishy, and that kinetic energy isn't a real thing))

(( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinetic_energy , among other things. It's relative to the target of course, so it's defined by delta velocity and mass, but that's hardly a factor in most of these situations. Kinetic energy can be relative all it wants, but if it's attached to a fist going twenty meters per second, and the fist is attached to a person standing on the same floor as you, you better hope somebody already tossed you backwards to take advantage of that fact.

And I think you're seriously trying to oppose the old adage of "it's not the fall that kills you, it's the sudden stop at the end". Collisions are complex things, sure, but elastic collisions have that curious effect: an object of lesser mass impacting an object of greater mass, will rebound - in accord with that Newton's Third thing. You will not be able to "carry through" a strike unless you and your fist are of greater mass than the target, or can actively push ahead after making contact. As soon as the kinetic amp strikes the target, it effectively stops - and that change in velocity, that transfer of kinetic energy that goes through it, is the thing that is amplified. The amp applies the amplified energy forward, and you only carry through if you didn't expend all of your strike's energy on that contact - meaning, effectively wasted part of your strike's energy that could have gone into the amp to be amplified.

Part of using the thing correctly, amplifying the most of the energy of your strikes, is what defines how effective you are at using it. And part of what your Uncon rolls signify.))

[Lenglon]

((for starters, there is no such thing as a perfectly elastic collision.
secondly, we're talking about the effect upon a human. humans are squishy, you will NEVER have anything remotely like an elastic collision with a human.
in point of fact, with the amounts of force we're talking about, metals are squishy too.

kinetic amps exponentially increase force, a real thing, not kinetic energy, a conceptual value that is highly variable depending upon your frame of reference.

Person A on Planet B punches person C with a kinetic amp.
A does NOT punch with the kinetic energy of his fist squared minus the kinetic energy they share from being on the same planet, not even if you square the shared energy too.
A punches with the force of A's punch squared.
(A+B)^2 - B^2 > A^2

kinetic energy has nothing to do with it.))

[SeriousConcentrate]

(Welp. Maybe you guys should start a QuickTopic or something for all this kinetic amp debate? Kinda feels like it's getting out of hand. Just saying. >.>)

[GreatWyrmGold]

((You can't mess with space magic thingies. They have special batteries that contain the souls that power them.

((...Do they have infinite power, then?))

Also, Gauss generators generate infinite energy. Problem solved.))

((But that's not fun...and it's probably DC...))

multiplies force vs multiplies kinetic energy

-SNIP-

((does that make sense?))

((I'm a bit fuzzy on how the force of impact could be manipulated without affecting the kinetic energy or anything...))

((So, to basically sum up the amp argument/discussion: It's space magic that makes you hit things harder. A lot harder.

((That explanation is boring and does not allow us to properly exploit it!))

Also, I think it adds a lot more force than just squaring the amount that it started with. I recall in, I think it was mission 7 (it was the one with the robot city) where a dude with an amp punched a huge robot that weighed tons in the leg and it shifted a whole half a meter. That's a lot more than just squaring the starting energy I think.))

((How hard did he punch and what was the approximate coefficient of friction on the surface the robot was on?))

(Welp. Maybe you guys should start a QuickTopic or something for all this kinetic amp debate? Kinda feels like it's getting out of hand. Just saying. >.>)

((But it's so much fun!))

[Tiruin]

(Welp. Maybe you guys should start a QuickTopic or something for all this kinetic amp debate? Kinda feels like it's getting out of hand. Just saying. >.>)

((But it's so much fun!))

((I'd love to point out the side-commentary is cluttering up the thread! Along with snide or joking remarks.

It's making it a hassle for PW >_>))

[Toaster]

((I thought snide and joking remarks were canon?))

[piecewise]

Nono, ANTI-Xeno Spit.
Xeno spit antidote.
If there is one.
If not, some sort of dehallucinogen substance.

(we'll ignore those will rolls this turn since I fucked up.
"An antidote to Xenospit? Maybe if we knew exactly what part of it effected you. And considering you put it through an unknown process, thats another level of unknown we're dealing with. You're basically screwed."

"Anyhow, Steve! Info! Needed badly here! We're spending our defense budget on all sorts of junk that we aren't sure we'll need or be able to use in any reasonable fashion! Any layouts, camera access or other things you can give us, oh mighty and presumably benevolent machine god?"

Ask Steve this.

((What's the worst that could happen?))

((Shooting teammates in feet and faces. A lot. When you don't mean to, that is. And when you do, you'll shoot yourself in the soft tissues, presumably.))

>You're gonna be on a gangway. It's a metal bridge about 100 feet long. It links the ship to the cradle it's in and then a second, longer bridge links the cradle to the building. It's enclosed, about 30 feet high and 15 wide. It will be filled with metal containers. It's highly advisable that you don't use cutting lasers and slice it in half, lest you fall to your very stupid deaths.

((Before becoming Team Joker's leader, I had the idea to train a group of inmates in group tactics and ballistic shield usage for the creation of impromptu barricades and to defend chokepoints, possibly by using shields with a switch-activated magnet system attached to their borders to create veritable walls with firing slits. Of course, they'd have to be trained for a while to form up and quickly rearrange the wall (to let a rocket or death laser fly harmlessly through a hole, for example), but it's an idea. I'm still thinking about helping train them anyway just to see if it's a plausible idea.))

"Got it." Milno says to the Armory Master, taking the toolboxes and the uniforms. He keeps an uniform and the toolbox with the bomb, giving the one with actual tools to Simus and the one with the medical material and weapons to Faith.

"I suppose this means I am on the sword defence team unless you call upon me then?"

"I think you'd technically be on hold until we need it, though you could probably ask and see if you can take part in the defense while we are out there. If you are allowed to, just don't take unreasonable risks and listen to Thomas." he says before turning his head to both synth-flesh ladies. "As soon as I put the uniform on, I will be ready."

If the time for action is now or soon, go to the Barracks and wear the uniform.

The young man wonders how strange it is that he still wants to head to the Barracks to get changed even though being naked is very likely the least of anyone's worries around the Sword judging by how the pre/post-mission and pre-jump standard procedures are. Old habits die hard indeed.

You get yourself dressed. Hard to say how long it will be till this mission starts, but there's no reason not to look fabulous.

"So scout eyes can't be programmed to follow a simple-ish path, then? Too bad."

Get into my suit. Purchase a laser rifle with my two remaining tokens. Edit: Also get the shock trigger if it's ready.

Spoiler: Gorat 'Chin' Ivanos (click to show/hide)

Str 3; Dex 3; End 3; Cha 5; Int 4; Wil 12//Spe 0; Int 1; Han 0 (-1); Con 1; Unc 0; Exo 8; Aux 1 (+1); Med 0
Mk II Suit; Microwave PK Amp; laser rifle: normal cigarettes; blue smokes; datapad (with platformer shooter); nanoghosts
Appearance: 5'11'', 170 pounds in a rather unmuscular frame, shoulder-long brown hair, short goatee, brown eyes, a rather long chin that earned him his nickname. Age 32
Half a robot foot. Robot right arm.

Shock trigger got. Laser rifle got. Suit worn.

"I think you'd technically be on hold until we need it, though you could probably ask and see if you can take part in the defense while we are out there. If you are allowed to, just don't take unreasonable risks and listen to Thomas." he says before turning his head to both synth-flesh ladies. "As soon as I put the uniform on, I will be ready."

"I see, I'll just wait until you call me then." He turns around "Looks like I won't be earning much pay..."

Get some free scrap metal from the AM. Make about 20 small dense metal discs with my amps, like large coins. /b]

[exo:2+2]

You get 15.

A great big old Polearm for your avatar? Sure, she could handle that. Though, made of scrap metal it's gonna break rather quickly, considering it's size and your strength.

((Well, seeing as how it's less intended for really cutting people up and more for sweeping them of their feet so my teammates can get an easy shot in, this would be ok. Hell, even a big staff would do. And made from scrap metal is mostly so that it wouldn't cost tokens, I'll buy a tesla sabre to cover my melee needs somewhere in the future.))

Confirming request for AM to build me a big polearm from scrap metal.

Miya opens a comm channel to Jim: "I don't have anything I could need for this mission really. I would suggest we don't buy that decomp though, as it would use up most of our budget for one thing. I suggest we buy an emergency kit for our team, cause we won't have a medic with us. Maybe rocket pods for Lars and Lukas, so they won't fall behind once the mad dash to ARES begins. Not sure if anyone your team needs any weapons? Maybe a melee weapon for you?

Or you could buy a crate of grenades in case they manage to dig in somewhere, or smoke grenades so you can cover your advance. Two of your team have cameyes after all, so that's a possibility."


((@Zako: does Bishop still have that rocket rifle? Can't find it in his sheet))


((Friendly reminder (this will probably mostly be applicable for the defending team): I am still selling a standard laser rifle (27/30 battery) for 1 token, a heavy mining laser (unsure how many battery left) for 5 tokens, and a Timmy Tear for free (seriously, someone take this damn thing).
Also, I am willing to lend out these things for free, or for you to get them now and pay Miya after the mission.
I can also lend out a thermite thrower and a civilian gauss pistol with 21 rounds.

Sorry for repeating this yet again, just want to make sure no tokens get wasted.))

Alright, consider it done for 2 tokens. I'll just throw it in your inventory now, to save time.

"I don't have a weapon yet, but I could get a laser rifle with my five tokens."  Theodore informs the person trying to organize the defense.  "I agree that it would probably be best to get some automated defenses to help protect the ship."
Theodore joins the defense team.
((If it hadn't been noted already))

You defend the join team.

Wait.

((Just popping up to say that the Timmy's Tear is useless, it only served to call on the Timmy Demon, it's been useless ever since. You might as well throw it out.))

((How would you know? We only know Timmy came for Mesor's character because he used them too many. It could still work.))

((There was a moment when someone tried to use it, and it was pretty explicitly stated by Piecewise that calling the help of an unknown god is futile if he isn't around. Sorry you missed it, should've cleared it up long ago.))

Actually, if Miyamoto doesn't know it IC, I'll take the pill. Could be almost as useful as my gauss pistols. i.e.: bluff.

And if the spear is free, I'll take that too. Free stuffs!

Actually the tears can still be used. They contain some of the remnant power of whatever that thing was. as such, they can be used even when it's gone.

Also, these actions require people to give you things so...well if they do the action to give it to you, then I'll stick it in your inventory. Till then, I suppose you'll just stand there with your hand out and a big expectant grin on your face.

"Hrmm. I really don't need anything, unless the Armory Master has some light armor on the cheap. If worst comes to worst, I can always pop into the void for a bit, though I'd rather not, as when I pop back, I may pop into something. And two objects occuping the same space is bad. So, as Steve said, if there is a bomb that's gonna go off, give it to me, and I'll get rid of it. Or try my damndest."

Ask AM for cheap light armor, then buy a gauss rifle clip. After that head to the R&D counter and ask them about a program to track my current co-ordinates, and to be able to track it without communication to any sort of navigation system. Also ask for any information on the Voidsuit (My suit artifact).

"Nothing in your price range." The armory master tells you while giving you a gauss clip.

As per theis program to track your coordinates without connecting to anything...I have no idea how that would work. For it to know where it is it needs to have a point of reference. No point of reference, no idea where it is.

And they don't tell you jack about that. Of course. They're scientists! They're here to watch you horribly maim yourself or die for their amusement.

Thats what science is.

"Also, while we're talking about weapons, does anyone need any sort of medieval armament? I got a few things. Just a moment."

Jim goes and retrieves all his melee weapons from his locker and brings them out for people to take, except for a mace and a two-handed sword, which he keeps on his person for the moment. (And yes, the spear is free. They all are.)

Jim, godfather of the stabbing sticks.

So I guess Vich gets himself a spear. Yay spear. I hope you can stop bullets with it.

Theodore hears someone talking about giving away medieval weaponry.  "Can I have a longsword?"

I'm just gonna have you take that sword.

Won't me and Faith be a bit suspicious, even with uniforms? Or is synthflesh not uncommon on Hephaestus? Also, you want to go ahead and distribute the handguns, Milno? They won't be much use if they're kept in a box, though not having to use them would be excellent.

Acquire disguise, then leave all equipment save Phase Armor, ANUBIS-257 (It's the civvie gauss pistol I got from the dude who gave us the datachip back in the Sharkmist mission, yes, I remembered that it was engraved), ammunition for it, a shoulder holster to hide it in, and the pistol if Milno decides to hand them out now, with the Armory Master. That includes rocketpack. Put the disguise on over the Phase Armor and ready up to go out.

Sorry, you can't bring anything but what you're given. That phase armor kinda stand out even more then synthflesh. A crewman might have synthflesh, but why would they have alien armor?  The pistol is fine, it's civ. The rocket pack is a no go. Again, doesn't go with the disguise. Just make sure to keep the pistol hidden.

((Unholy_Pariah cancels post, interrupted by ninja x40.))

request pm'ed updates to stat sheet, buy 7 token reinforced hard point and acquire industrial exo-suit sized backpack for maximum severed head and gear storage.
if i don't have enough tokens to buy the reinforced hard point revert back to the standard 5 token hard point and mount the heavy pulse laser.

All done.

((I updated my notes with a list of all the people in the PSDF. Tell me if I'm forgetting anyone or if you think I should change anyone's role.
Yeah, put Timmy's tear in the pill machine. Surely giving someone the ability to call upon demons to alter the universe is a great idea.))

Check if I can combine normal vision, heat vision and x-ray vision or, since I have multiple monitors inside the battlesuit, if it would be possible to have one vision mode to each screen. ((I'm thinking I could use normal vision to navigate, heat vision to find people and x-ray to see whether or not they're carrying weapons.))

Also, do battlesuits have cameras at the end of their fingers like the robots? If no, see if I can get two small cameras from the AM for free and attach them to the end of my index fingers. If yes (or I manage to get them for free from the AM), see if I can put the index finger cameras on another screen. ((I'm thinking I could use my fingers to safely check around corners.))

Finally, can I use the electrified surface defense system to only electrify my hand or another individual bodypart?

((@SeriousConcentrate: How many tokens do you get for returning your current decompensator?))

Makes sense, sure, you can have it split across monitors.
Sure to that second part too.

((Kinda skimmed the last few pages.))

>Mod it Whig to fire more powerfully, then.

If I have any tokens left, see what else I can buy for her.

You hurl tokens at your rifle until it spontaneously becomes twice as powerful. And wearing a dress.

(( I got skipped. ))

Use VR doc to perform a full medical scan on myself to find out exactly what the doc did to my body. Wait for my pills.

Take the 2 handed sword and a set of knuckles.

VR can't really do that.

You do get the sword and knuckles though.

T. silently takes one of the spears with a nod of thanks.

If I obtain a token somehow, get helmet upgrade. If not, go look for ventilator shaft person

((I'm assuming that the ship defenders will need to stay inside until the Avatar hits the fan? So we can just bum around doing on-ship stuff until then?))

(I'd sort of recommend against it because as soon as the order is given Steve wants everyone moving into potion, not continuing to argue with the AM over upgrades of fucking around in VR)


I didn't see anyone give you one yet so.

You climb up and look in the Ventilation shaft. You don't see anyone around for the moment. Maybe they scurried deeper in?

((CRAP. All the Jim weapons I would want are gone
I kinda wanted the daggers and possibly a spear so I could Kinetic Amp throw them at people...darn
Eh, guess STEPHEN HAWKING will take a cutlass.))

STEPHEN HAWKING grabs Jims cutlass

Stephen hawking, pirate.

"Take it with my blessing."

(Remaining stock:

one cutlass
one longsword
one two-handed sword
two sets of brass knuckles

Distributed:

One spear to Thearpox
One longsword to Alarith
One mace to Devastator
One mace for me
One two-handed sword to Miyamoto
One spear to Tack
One dagger to Remalle
One dagger to GWG
One cutlass to BFEL

Just keeping a note of these so PW can check the most recent one and update accordingly.

Also, question for PW: Can I trade in my current decomp for the best one, and if so, how many tokens will be discounted? Getting it for Jim doesn't seem to be an unpopular opinion so if I can get a discount of at least five tokens off of the cost, then I'll get one and let everyone else divvy up the remaining mission tokens.)

You could return it for half price, once you wipe the blood off it.

"I think I'll take one, Jim, or two if you'll allow it. And, defense team, while I would like to get a personal amp, I'll hold off on it. I do support the drone platform idea, though."

Take a set of brass knuckles and a longsword.

No longswords left. Also, don't you have a freaking monoatomic sword?

Knuckles transferred.

((If Jim's handing out swords, Jobasio would certainly take that remaining cutlass. Part of any self respecting dress uniform, don'chaknow.))

((Would you rather I take the longsword?))

((Well, yeah. Not that you have any way of knowing that, though- I'm still kinda stuck in limbo doing things. I think.
'Scool, I can brutally murder you for it later.


...Alternately, I guess I could add an action thingy.))


>Finish buying/installing that mod on Whig

>Then be spurred on by alien mind control a strange hunch of good stuff to be had and sprint in the general direction of Jim, attempting to nab that last cutlass.

"I say, is that a cutlass?! I have always-- well, for about twenty minutes-- wanted one of those!"

Yeah yeah, got it.

Might as well make it an action.

request info from AM on Heavy Laser and Long Range battlesuits.

"One has a big old heavy laser built onto it. The other is designed for long range and comes with a sniper rifle sort of gauss cannon. Basically a LESHO rifle but bigger."

((Bishop currently has:

A MKIII suit with 3 auto-manipulator shields
A rocket rifle with 2 clips
A gauss rifle with 2 clips
A cutting torch
A monofilament razor
2 genetic therapies (Trauma partition membranes and Fibroblast enhancement)

I want something that can help make computer hacking and control easier, and maybe some mechanical parts and tools for use in repairing stuff. Basically, stuff to make me a better and more reliable techie. In the future, I would want a battlesuit of some kind that has been modified to let me do more technical and delicate things.))

"I'd like to get something that can make my job of hacking into those computers easier. Maybe the Armoury Master knows something?"

Ask the AM if she has anything that can help with hacking and finding certain control codes in computers. Anything that can help with getting into and controlling computers easier.

"Well, there are Icepicks. They'll hack pretty much anything, but they're single use and sort of expensive."

((What do you mean you don't understand.....? I was looking for some 4-5 token invisibility options))
"So what have you got that allows me to move although slowly most likely and for 4-5 tokens that doesn't have me worrying about power consumption... meta-materials maybe?"
Checkout options (can I have a list with pros/cons or something?)

"Well, we got a cloak that will bend light around you. It's in your price range and you can move with it but it's not a perfect illusion. It will definitely make you much less noticeable though."