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[chainek]

I made a forum account here just to inquire on some things related to the interface.

Everywhere I go on the internet where I see people talking about Dwarf Fortress(forums mostly), the first thing that gets said is something along the lines of "I'd love to play it if the interface was easier to figure out". Yeah, I spent an entire month of my life watching youtube videos and eventually got the game down and playable myself. I havn't played in a couple of months now and was just about to start playing again when I realized that I have forgotten how to manipulate the UI.

All of the work in progress information I gather seems to be related to adding new features and stomping out bugs.

My question is, when does the new features and bug stomping stop and a re-work of the interface begin? It is my belief that this game could go mainstream easily if the interface was changed to something more point and click friendly.(as in, end up on Steam, make lots of money etc...)  Before I thought this was kind of a waste, but now after not playing for a long time I don't want to have to re-learn and memorize all the commands again.

I'm sorry if this is some kind of repost. I quickly glanced through the major forum section and didn't notice anything related to this.

[Niyazov]

I sincerely doubt that we will see substantial interface improvements within the next, oh, let's start with a year. I've been playing this game for years and with every update the UI gets more arcane. Essentially, Toady is going to make the game that he wants to make and the rest of us are for the most part just along for the ride.

[chainek]

That's the impression I'm getting. It's nice enough that he's offering it for free as it is. I just hate the thought of re-learning the interface again to play it.

But seriously, a very good re-working of the interface, then throwing this thing up on Steam would rake in the cash fast. I would easily throw the amount of money a premium game costs at this.

[dreaux]

Hell, I'd throw money down for a decent UI too. I've tried several times to play the game and I just cannot get past the controls. They're frustrating, masochistic, and they really kill any replay value for me. Every time I go back I have completely forgotten how to do anything.

It's sad because I feel like there is a really great game here that nobody will ever get to see. A UI overhaul is the only thing it needs.

[i2amroy]

Essentially, Toady is going to make the game that he wants to make and the rest of us are for the most part just along for the ride.

This right here. I mean Toady has already turned down a multi-million dollar deal from a company that offered to purchase DF from him. There are a few things out there that do make the interface a little easier (mainly Dwarf Therapist, but this guy is coming up with something to incorporate mouse commands into the game) but my guess is that UI interface cleanups will only occur when Toady reaches the points where he needs to rewrite it in order to make room for new stuff (which probably won't happen for at least another 10 years or so).

[reodjectz]

DF is not meant for mousing imo. Once you get used to it, it is exceptionally fast. I think of things as words and they quickly become automatic. I would hate to click through 4 multi-page sub-menus when I can do it instantly with 4 keystrokes.

The only major flaw (to me) are items that have different short-cuts depending on the menu you got to them from, designating an up / down stairway vs constructing one (d-i vs b-C-x) for example. And the lack of sorting in lists. Just go try to make some animal stockpiles for specific ones...

And I have given more then the cost of an A-list game as have many others, at this point I don't think money is Toady's motivator.

[Jeoshua]

The only major flaw (to me) are items that have different short-cuts depending on the menu you got to them from, designating an up / down stairway vs constructing one (d-i vs b-C-x) for example.

This.

The thing that would make the interface better in my opinion is not crazy bells and whistles, a whole rewrite of the interface into windows code, or anything stupid like that.

What I'd like to see is a more unified and streamlined interface, where commands are added where they are needed, in a logical form, instead of haphazardly wherever they may fall like they are now.  It would take some minor re-learning but if the interface was logical enough, it wouldn't matter.

[Starver]

Of course, if/when it does get revamped, there'll be complaints.  Oh yeah.

Because all those people (and I count myself in this) with high muscle-memory adaption to certain keystrokes are going to be unhappy for an indeterminate amount of time when unlearning/relearning has to be done.  So... does he put in an INIT option of [MENUS:OLDSTYLE|NEWSTYLE] so that all (not completely new and uncontradictory) features are available under either the current[1] or the re-imagined manner?

And please never take away keyboard operation.  There are some things that "painting with the mouse" is good for, and one particular thing (quickening vertical columns) that I'm still trying to ween myself off of using in light of the new "properly designated across Z-levels" ability, but keys rule as far as controls go.

IMO, YMMV, HTH, HAND.


[1] Not so difficult, to be honest, save for the stockpike unsorted orders...  Yeah, that takes a while to get used to, until you know it's "four page-scrolls down" for a given stone type of course.

[Zoomulator]

I actually don't see a problem with the interface.. is it really that difficult for you?
Sure, it's a bit tedious at times, and some small improvement would lessen the amount of wear on certain keys.. but I never found it especially difficult to learn. Maybe it just fits me.

[slothen]

The interface is not good, but making everything point-and-clickable wouldn't make it any better.  The system of hotkeys for everything is fine as is.  The main problems I see arise from having to scroll through very very long lists for a lot of things, where the list may not even provide the information you want: animal lists, item lists in dumps, stock screens for corpses, hundreds of varieties of indistinguishable procedural item-types in the stockpile customizer menu.  The other thing that takes getting used to is having to use multiple sets of keys to scroll through items (looking at you, workshop profile manager).  And, oh god.  Selecting specific material items/materials for construction is excruciating, especially once all the nearby blocks you want are used up and they're on page 3

What I'd like to see is a more unified and streamlined interface, where commands are added where they are needed, in a logical form, instead of haphazardly wherever they may fall like they are now.  It would take some minor re-learning but if the interface was logical enough, it wouldn't matter.

this tbh.  Stuff could use rearranging and some rethinking to be more logical, but the interface does not need a major paradigm shift.

[Kossilar]

I think its awesome that this game has so much complexity, but I'd really like to see sorted menus and searches. When you're adding a new job you can just type in what you want and the game sifts through everything until you get a match. Its fast and efficient. With the huge size of most of the menus a lot of time is spent searching for what you want just because everything is unsorted.

[Babylon]

The interface is not good, but making everything point-and-clickable wouldn't make it any better.  The system of hotkeys for everything is fine as is.  The main problems I see arise from having to scroll through very very long lists for a lot of things, where the list may not even provide the information you want: animal lists, item lists in dumps, stock screens for corpses, hundreds of varieties of indistinguishable procedural item-types in the stockpile customizer menu.  The other thing that takes getting used to is having to use multiple sets of keys to scroll through items (looking at you, workshop profile manager).  And, oh god.  Selecting specific material items/materials for construction is excruciating, especially once all the nearby blocks you want are used up and they're on page 3

What I'd like to see is a more unified and streamlined interface, where commands are added where they are needed, in a logical form, instead of haphazardly wherever they may fall like they are now.  It would take some minor re-learning but if the interface was logical enough, it wouldn't matter.

this tbh.  Stuff could use rearranging and some rethinking to be more logical, but the interface does not need a major paradigm shift.

There are some things that are completely unintuitive, like wood burning being under farming labor, and staircases having different hotkeys in construction than they do in dig, the military squad assignment screen needs to be searchable and have more functionality, and the stockpiles (food in particular) could do with rearranging, the trade interface is also pretty kludgy.  I don't think mouse integration would make a great deal of difference personally, although being able to use left click right click as k and v would make looking at stuff a lot quicker. 

[white_darkness]

I expect it'll get cleaned up some over time.  After all, there was a nice big change to the units interface with the move to .34.xx series.

I love not having all the dead unicorns on the same list with the dwarves.

With hauling being completely revamped, there may be a few more interface adjustments tossed in, I expect they will come over time.

[Niyazov]

There are some things that are completely unintuitive, like wood burning being under farming labor

Wood burning is part of the ash-potash and ash-lye-soap cycle, all the other steps of which are agricultural in nature. Although charcoal was once widely used in iron-making, the charcoal-burner was not a skilled laborer the way that premodern smelters were. No special equipment is needed to make charcoal and it has traditionally been made outdoors in big smouldering piles; the charcoal-burner was perceived as a rural rustic, as in A. A. Milne's "The Charcoal-Burner":

"The charcoal burner has tales to tell.
He lives in the forest, alone in the forest,
He sits in the forest, alone in the forest,
And rabbits come up and they give him good morning,
And rabbits come up and say, 'Beautiful morning',
And the moon swings clear of the tall black trees,
And owls fly over and wish him good night.
Quietly over to wish him good night"

In areas of the world where charcoal is still made by hand in large quantities, like India and Haiti, charcoal is mostly used as cooking fuel. As many DF vets can attest the demand for charcoal invariably outstrips local tree supply, as seen in this picture of the Haiti-Dominican Republic border:



What DF doesn't model is the other detrimental effects of charcoal production, namely erosion, air pollution, and habitat destruction. DomRep has its own problems but its land has been marginally better managed than Haiti's, which is one reason that illegal charcoaling and charcoal smuggling from DomRep to Haiti is such a big problem- Haiti's ability to produce charcoal has been ruined by its uncontrolled production. I live in a US state that was almost entirely clear-cut for iron production 100 years ago and it has taken that long for the forests to partially recover, even with aggressive forest management programs. I suspect that Haiti is already in a much worse shape than my state was and it lacks the effective government or affluent population needed to make any reforestation effort work, and will therefore continue to erode to the point that the entire country is naked slope, cholera marsh and inhospitable desert

TL;DR charcoal burning is by nature substantially different than other metalworking jobs and has been correctly placed in agriculture (or at a stretch with woodworking)

[slothen]

There are some things that are completely unintuitive, like wood burning being under farming labor, and staircases having different hotkeys in construction than they do in dig, the military squad assignment screen needs to be searchable and have more functionality, and the stockpiles (food in particular) could do with rearranging, the trade interface is also pretty kludgy.  I don't think mouse integration would make a great deal of difference personally, although being able to use left click right click as k and v would make looking at stuff a lot quicker.

yeah, these are all good examples, although the wood thing you can just deal with, its better under farming than anywhere else, and if you use v/k with the mouse you'll have to move your hand back off the mouse to do anything else anyway.