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[Azthor]

Well this looks cool. Is there still room?

And it looks like we are doing ELC as LA+CL right?

HD/CL+LA, yes.

[Criptfeind]

HD divided by CL huh? A strange way to do things to be sure, but no stranger then I was thinking also it looks like I meant to post this in a specific thread and not the main one. Whoops.

[Skyrunner]

...Why do you divide the HD by the CL? o_o

Isn't ECL = LA + HD?

[Criptfeind]

The standard one is HD+CL+LA. But a few of the builds I have seen thrown area 'The Arena' have not been that so I have been a little confused.

Although of course I am still confused with this one as it means our ECL goes down as we level up.

[Skyrunner]

La+CL is probably the norm. LA gives HD, meaning a +6 Succubus is actually a +12 base, meaning it is vastly underpowered.

[da dwarf lord]

I think he means HD or CL + LA = ECL

[Criptfeind]

La+CL is probably the norm. LA gives HD

No. It's not actually in the rules. LA does not give HD actually. HD is the base monsters are made on and then LA is added to account for special powers if it is a race that one could play.

Most critters in core are of course underpowered for player use because they were never intended for player use and thus the writers never bothered to balance them around ECL and only around CR, which I have always though of as a stroke of laziness that they should have avoided.

But anyway, who needs them with slap dash fixes? I'm going to go roll up my Black Ethergaunt.

[Powder Miner]

I don't think HD is involved at all. LA stands for Level Adjustment and that's what it is, the way you adjust your level when you play a monster class. I think it's probably balanced for HD, after HD was given for the monsters.

[The Fool]

La+CL is probably the norm. LA gives HD, meaning a +6 Succubus is actually a +12 base, meaning it is vastly underpowered.

A good example of a race with LA and HD is a gnoll. It may only be a +1 LA, but it also has 3 levels of monstrous humanoid. It would be ECL 4 before you added classes.

If it says that you have levels in something add it to the ECL before you start adding classes, but other than that there is no way of getting HD from your choice of race. If you have a +6 LA and you're rolling a level 7 character, you'd have 1 HD. You'd be extra squishy.

[Criptfeind]

If it says that you have levels in something add it to the ECL before you start adding classes, but other than that there is no way of getting HD from your choice of race. If you have a +6 LA and you're rolling a level 7 character, you'd have 1 HD. You'd be extra squishy.

Unless the race comes with HD. You only lose racial HD if there is only one racial HD (see: almost all player races.) If you start with more then one racial HD they are kept and added to your ECL.

[RAM]

In my experience, character levels grant hit dice, unless you are taking monster classes, which miss hit dice because they are accounting for level adjustments. So the official rule is just (hit dice)+(level adjustment)=(character level for experience purposes). Now a problem arises when monster hit dice are being treated like class levels when, in fact, they are sad and lame. For an example, lets take the

bugbear:
Bugbears As Characters

Bugbear characters possess the following racial traits.

    +4 Strength, +2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution, -2 Charisma.
    Medium size.
    A bugbear’s base land speed is 30 feet.
    Racial Hit Dice: A bugbear begins with three levels of humanoid, which provide 3d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +2, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +1, Ref +3, and Will +1.
    Racial Skills: A bugbear’s humanoid levels give it skill points equal to 6 × (2 + Int modifier). Its class skills are Climb, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, and Spot.
    Racial Feats: A bugbear’s humanoid levels give it two feats.
    +3 natural armor bonus.
    +4 racial bonus on Move Silently checks.
    Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., scent.
    Automatic Languages: Common, Goblin. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Elven, Giant, Gnoll, Orc.
    Favored Class: Rogue.
    Level adjustment +1.

using point buy: 16+6+6+4+0+0, wielding longsword, heavy shield, chain shirt.
HP/AC/att/dam/Fsave/Rsave/Wsave
If there are no hit dice:
bugbear1/fighter1:
13/22/8/1d8+6/7/3/-1
Horc0/fighter2:
19/19(dodge)/8/1d8+5/7/2/-1

bug1/fighter3
30/23/10/1d8+6/8/6/0
Horc0/F4
34/19/10/1d8+7/8/5/0

With HD:
bug4:(morningstar)
26/23/9/1d8+6/4/6/0
Horc0/F4
34/19/10/1d8+7/8/5/0

The extra constitution means that hit points will eventually catch and then exceed the plain-raced counterpart while AC is consistently higher. Damage is generally superior, although weapon spec can compete if not using two-handed weapons. Without the spare feats the saves have dropped off but not to a massive extent. Basically, leaving hit dice out is just too much of an advantage, while putting them in is too weak, maybe half them and round down? It would be consistent with single hit-die races...

[Azthor]

Effective Character Level: Racial HitDice + Class HitDice + Level Adjustment.

Also, assuming neither are low level, a human fighter would wipe the floor with a bugbear fighter of an equivalent ECL.

[Criptfeind]

The issue is the game was not balanced that way. The game was balanced to give a big middle finger to anyone who wants to play a monster race, but it is not consistent. So the only real way to do it is go by a case by case basis, any overall ruling made to it to try to make them playable will fail because they are not suppose to be playable but their lack of playability changes from case to case.

Not to mention players gain much more flexibility whereas monsters are normally based on doing certain things, which causes much hilarious chaos when you try to combine these two differing perceptions of power.

Effective Character Level: Racial HitDice + Class HitDice + Level Adjustment.

Me and RAM both agree with this being the norm, but the issue is that is not how it is in these Arena games and in the end that fails all of D&D because it screws over most people that want to be monsters except for at ungodly high levels.

[Azthor]

The issue is the game was not balanced that way. The game was balanced to give a big middle finger to anyone who wants to play a monster race, but it is not consistent. So the only real way to do it is go by a case by case basis, any overall ruling made to it to try to make them playable will fail because they are not suppose to be playable but their lack of playability changes from case to case.

Not to mention players gain much more flexibility whereas monsters are normally based on doing certain things, which causes much hilarious chaos when you try to combine these two differing perceptions of power.

Effective Character Level: Racial HitDice + Class HitDice + Level Adjustment.

Me and RAM both agree with this being the norm, but the issue is that is not how it is in these Arena games and in the end that fails all of D&D because it screws over most people that want to be monsters.

Humans, Warforgeds, Strongheart Haflings and Dragonwrought Kobolds are amongst the most powerful races in the game, but, if you pit any of them against a troll  early on, it becomes an unavoidable curbstomp; 3.5 is a feat based system, at lower levels non standard races, specially the monstruous one, reign over their more common counterparts, but that situation is eventually inverted.

The only situations were LAs are worth it is when you want them for roleplay purposes or you are aware of some obscure and lame advantage; there are many of the later in the game, by the way.

Da dwarf, you were correct, that is precisely what I meant, it is my fault for using such a confusing symbol though.

Also, LA+1 is usually worth it if the DM allows you to pay it off.

[Criptfeind]

What you just said was gibberish. There are no low level monstruous races. You might as well say low level races lose out to ancient dragons.

Also uh. When did you change what you thought it was, cause it seems to have changed.