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Author Topic: Food Thread: Kitchen Chemistry  (Read 576374 times)

LordSlowpoke

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Re: Food Thread: It's rad! Or radish at least.
« Reply #1380 on: July 14, 2014, 04:45:45 pm »

there are parts of a foreign land where things are so organic they don't even use natural fertilizer

these parts are enjoying what is commonly known as famine

organic produce will have its time, but that's when people actually get their head out of their collective ass and do vertical farming, there's hardly enough logistic capacity to feed our civilization otherwise
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GiglameshDespair

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Re: Food Thread: It's rad! Or radish at least.
« Reply #1381 on: July 14, 2014, 04:56:06 pm »

I'd prefer a fruit that isn't filled with insects than one without.
Fertilisers are overused in the quantities applied, and it may certainly be healthier to reduce by-consumption of traces of pesticides and the like, not to mention the effects on wildlife like bees. So GM crops are good in that aspect.

IN sum: useful, probably necessary, but we should try to do it as little as possible.
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timferius

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Re: Food Thread: It's rad! Or radish at least.
« Reply #1382 on: July 14, 2014, 05:30:45 pm »

I think organic is a nice idea, a beautiful idea, and a waste of money. With the lax controls on what even constitues as organic, it's more an excuse to ramp up prices on good. The only way to guarntee it is if you personally know the farm your food is comming from. So if you can shop all local and all that, that's amazing. For most of us, it's unrealistic.
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BFEL

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Re: Food Thread: It's rad! Or radish at least.
« Reply #1383 on: July 14, 2014, 05:37:24 pm »

Damn it, why do I always get fertilizer and pesticide confused? :P

That's what I was referring to when I said my thoughts on the subject. Yeah, apparently that one episode of Futurama was right, "organic" stuff is bug filled :P
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MaximumZero

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Re: Food Thread: It's rad! Or radish at least.
« Reply #1384 on: July 14, 2014, 11:06:38 pm »

Yeah, apparently that one episode of Futurama was right, "organic" stuff is bug filled :P
That said, no matter how many egg salad sandwiches I eat, I never turn into superman. Curse you, Futurama!
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Bauglir

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Re: Food Thread: It's rad! Or radish at least.
« Reply #1385 on: July 14, 2014, 11:34:12 pm »

I will say that I've found organic onions to be far easier to peel, for reasons beyond my comprehension, so those and carrots (whose price is within 10 cents per pound of the non-organic kind) are the only things I reliably buy organic versions of.
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Sappho

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Re: Food Thread: It's rad! Or radish at least.
« Reply #1386 on: July 15, 2014, 01:49:39 am »

Yeah, apparently that one episode of Futurama was right, "organic" stuff is bug filled :P
That said, no matter how many egg salad sandwiches I eat, I never turn into superman. Curse you, Futurama!

The sandwiches have to be purchased from a gas station bathroom vending machine in order to work.

I'm actually surprised by all the hate on organic food. That said, there are a lot of distinctions to be made, here. There is plenty of "organic" produce out there which is absolute garbage. Just a cash grab, as you say. Organic food which is grown properly (in small farms, using compost and manure as fertilizer, polycultured to take care of pests and disease) is way better. It tastes better (MUCH better) and is more nutritious. But it has to be done right, and it has to be fairly local (=fresh), otherwise you're being conned out of your money.

If you're trying to buy organic food from a chain supermarket, then yeah, you're being screwed. That's because this "organic" stuff is grown in exactly the same way as the non-organic stuff. On massive farms thousands of miles away. They just replace chemical fertilizer with "organic" fertilizer, chemical weed killer with "organic" weed killer, and chemical pesticides with "organic" pesticides, and plant giant monocultured fields (=one huge field with one type of produce, like a giant lettuce field for example). They plant, tend, and harvest them in exactly the same way as the other farms: with giant machines that use tons of fuel, spraying "organic" chemicals at regular intervals. This food is no better than the non-organic stuff, and no better for the environment.

To grow proper organic food, you can't just grow it in the same way and switch out the man-made chemicals for ones distilled from natural sources. Otherwise it doesn't work. The fields have to be polycultured. Different types of food have to grow together. For example, beans to feed the soil, marigolds to keep away pests, and other vegetables in between. Compost has to be worked into the soil before planting if you want the richest produce. Then you have to go through and weed it and such as it's growing. But because it's not a monoculture, you have to do it by hand. You can't use a machine to go down each row, because each row is different. You can't spray a targeted herbicide on the whole field that kills everything but the plant you're trying to grow like the big farms do, because you're growing more than one thing. This means the farms have to be smaller and actual humans have to do the work, rather than diesel-powered machines. It's more expensive to pay humans than to fuel machines (though not by a lot these days, and probably not for much longer as fuel prices increase). But it's healthier and tastier, because chemical fertilizers only give the plants the bare minimum they need to grow large, without regard for what that growth is made of; compost and good soil give them everything they need to thrive.

If you're not convinced, go to a farmer's market and find some good stuff. Talk to the owners of the stall, ask them how they grow it. Splurge just once on a proper organic tomato. You don't have to buy this kind of stuff all the time (in fact, that's probably not practical unless you're rich), but it's good to know the real difference, and the supermarket isn't going to show you that.

As far as bugs are concerned, polyculture farming takes care of most of them. I had a large garden years ago which was 100% organic and produced amazing food; I took care of pests by planting marigolds and relocating spiders to the fields. The organic produce I buy from farmer's markets is almost always totally bug-free. The only produce I ever find bugs in is lettuce, and that happens even when I get the non-organic stuff. And it's not that hard to just rinse it off before eating.

BFEL

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Re: Food Thread: It's rad! Or radish at least.
« Reply #1387 on: July 15, 2014, 05:57:12 am »

I took care of pests by planting marigolds and relocating spiders to the fields.

So instead of finding insects in your food, now you just find arachnids there! [/sarcasm]

So what is it about marigolds that repel bugs? Are they like venus fly traps or what? :P

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scrdest

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Re: Food Thread: It's rad! Or radish at least.
« Reply #1388 on: July 15, 2014, 06:04:13 am »

I took care of pests by planting marigolds and relocating spiders to the fields.

So instead of finding insects in your food, now you just find arachnids there! [/sarcasm]

So what is it about marigolds that repel bugs? Are they like venus fly traps or what? :P

Apparently it's less bugs, more beetles and nematodes, the latter because some species of marigolds produce chemicals which are allelopathic towards them, mostly French dwarf and Mexican species.
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Sappho

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Re: Food Thread: It's rad! Or radish at least.
« Reply #1389 on: July 15, 2014, 06:11:12 am »

There's something in the flowers that repels bugs. If there were any other pests, they were eaten by the spiders, I guess. All I know is the combination kept my garden pest-free, and the vegetables and herbs were the best I'd ever tasted. All I had to do was water it once a day and pull out weeds once a week (about 10 minutes of work for a large garden). Meanwhile, my mother decided to plant a garden on the other side of the house (they both got equal sunlight), doused it with chemical fertilizers and pesticides, and watched all the plants wilt and die.

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Re: Food Thread: It's rad! Or radish at least.
« Reply #1390 on: July 15, 2014, 06:45:26 am »

Well, if she doused them in chemicals, no wonder they died. If she doused them with enough water, they would die too.
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Osmosis Jones

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Re: Food Thread: It's rad! Or radish at least.
« Reply #1391 on: July 15, 2014, 06:48:12 am »

Well, if she doused them in chemicals, no wonder they died. If she doused them with enough water, they would die too.

Of course, because water is a chemical :P

(I know, not what you were trying to imply, but I couldn't resist)
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Sappho

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Re: Food Thread: It's rad! Or radish at least.
« Reply #1392 on: July 15, 2014, 07:09:04 am »

The irony is, she was trying to prove to me that gardens grow better when you use "professional" tools. She bought bags of soil from the hardware store and always added Miracle Gro to the water. I suppose it's an exaggeration to say she "doused" them, but she used chemical fertilizers and pesticides, and the garden crashed and burned. Her reaction was, of course, that she would just have to invest in more expensive chemicals. Meanwhile, I was making salad from my garden every day and cooking with fresh herbs.

She also insisted on only planting a couple of types of things. I had everything mixed together, which made weeding a little more complicated, but made everything grow better. She had hers divided into 6 sections, each section with its own type of plant, with a good amount of space in between them so they wouldn't "contaminate" each other or whatever nonsensical thing she thought she was doing.

Yoink

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Re: Food Thread: It's rad! Or radish at least.
« Reply #1393 on: July 15, 2014, 08:42:41 am »

When it comes to organic produce and fertilizer, Sappho knows her shit.
Pun intended. :P
(Personally I definitely agree that organic produce is better, but everything I would have said on the topic has already been said far more eloquently than how I would have put it. Also, the fact that someone suggested GM food as a better alternative, well... It is sad but not unexpected.)
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Re: Food Thread: It's rad! Or radish at least.
« Reply #1394 on: July 15, 2014, 08:59:51 am »

Well, if she doused them in chemicals, no wonder they died. If she doused them with enough water, they would die too.

Of course, because water is a chemical :P

(I know, not what you were trying to imply, but I couldn't resist)

Actually yes, that is precisely what I've been implying. I didn't want to explicitly state that, though.
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