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[ethan]

, but i feel like there are glaring militia-related bugs that aren't being addressed, as development of new features continues...

Believe me, i understand the one-man developer situation, and balancing new stuff with constantly optimizing/refactoring old stuff.  But i'd still like to understand the reasoning.  Most likely Tarn won't find this thread, but possibly a discussion will happen?

I'll be playing 34.02 if you need me.  (Waiting for 34.07 support in DwarfTherapist because i cant play without it!)

[ravaught]

DT is now compatible with DF 34.07.. grab the Lazy Newb pack if you want to get all the updated stuff in one bundle. Been using it for a while now and no major issue.


It would be great to discuss the militia related bugs, but I think you need to be a touch more specific here. Is it one bug in particular, a list of bugs in particular, or just a general 'combat is screwed up'?

[the_game_hunt]

General combat has been always broken 

[ethan]

^ yea that one.  I was browsing the bug database and seeing lots of fairly major militia-related bugs that were 1-2+ years old.  Its just disappointing that such an epic game isn't solid in that area.

I'll check out the newb pack.  But i have been building DT from source with no luck with 34.07.

[dree12]

I think he isn't working on those bugs because they're all very rare. I've played 5+ year forts often with full employment of scheduling and alerts without running into a single hiccup.

[dizzyelk]

I also haven't really been hit by too many militia bugs. The only things I would like added to the militia right now is the ability to set up a route for them on the fly like in old versions, but I don't care about that as much as I care about seeing the army arc finished. I'm ready to siege those bastard goblins, so I can have all the goblin christmas presents.

[slothen]

what bugs?

[Moonshadow101]

what bugs?

This.

I've been reading people screaming about how horribly broken the military is for years, but I've never understood what you people are talking about. I've never used Danger Rooms or other silly tricks, and still manage to get a couple of legendary fighters within the first three years, a few squads of less-skilled fighters for backup, and well-trained marksdwarves for ranged combat. Force-Move and Force-Attack commands would be lovely, but aside from that, I really don't see the issue. 

[NTJedi]

The important military issue I feel exists involves where the goblins can't do anything about gates or walls... which makes the game unbalanced for them.  Can you imagine if we had to play this game as the goblins??  Arriving at the dwarven forts where they close the gates and there's nothing for us to do except wait around plus our goblin soldiers being trapped in cages without no way to break them free.  As a result I play where there's always a path leading inside my fort and without cage traps, but I want to have a fortress and enemies attacking my walls and gates.  I know it's on the list of things to be done, but this feels so important to me since sieges are such a major variable in the game.

[ethan]

There are at least 29 bugs in the db that are military-related, and major/crash/blocks (that is, only the ones that were categorized this way).  Maybe i'm more demanding and need more control, but i've always been frustrated with it.

Here's a list off the top of me head:

• equipment mismatches and the always-popular issues with crossbowmen not using ammo, and training issues related to it
• stationing at posts (sometimes) and not firing from them
• a squaddwarf stuck in a loop repeatedly getting something out of a bin and putting it back
• no valid reachable target for crossbowmen who have a valid target (not to mention they could move 4 steps and have a target)
• going to sleep as soon as they are given orders (probably not a bug, but shouldnt happen!)

[dree12]

There are at least 29 bugs in the db that are military-related, and major/crash/blocks (that is, only the ones that were categorized this way).  Maybe i'm more demanding and need more control, but i've always been frustrated with it.

Here's a list off the top of me head:

• equipment mismatches and the always-popular issues with crossbowmen not using ammo, and training issues related to it
• stationing at posts (sometimes) and not firing from them
• a squaddwarf stuck in a loop repeatedly getting something out of a bin and putting it back
• no valid reachable target for crossbowmen who have a valid target (not to mention they could move 4 steps and have a target)
• going to sleep as soon as they are given orders (probably not a bug, but shouldnt happen!)

The number of bugs in DB is irrelavent, because almost all reporters categorize their bugs as major (since there's usually no workaround). I haven't personally experienced or been bugged by any such bugs, but I'll explain why anyways:

• equipment mismatches and the always-popular issues with crossbowmen not using ammo, and training issues related to it
  • Equipment mismatches are just announcement spam, and always resolve themselves. Crossbowmen have always used ammo when they had access to a quiver and sufficient bolts.
• stationing at posts (sometimes) and not firing from them
  • I can't attest; I never really use the manual station except for insane dwarf control. The schedule-station has always worked.
• a squaddwarf stuck in a loop repeatedly getting something out of a bin and putting it back
  • I'm not sure if it's the same bug, but my training dwarves grab something and put it in the barracks before going to train. It's a minor inconvienience, and doens't even waste much time. Certainly not a loop
• no valid reachable target for crossbowmen who have a valid target (not to mention they could move 4 steps and have a target)
  • Kill orders have worked for marksdwarves for me, though they are rare; usually, they are set to hunt instead of kill.
• going to sleep as soon as they are given orders (probably not a bug, but shouldnt happen!)
  • This is common enough to annoy some people, but with a large enough military can be ignored. It's better than walking into combat drowsy

I use the military very often in 5+ year forts, including alerts, schedules, points, routes, and burrows, and haven't experienced a single major hiccup since marksdwarves were fixed back in 0.31. Of these 29 bugs you reported, many people simply aren't affected. So, although I trust they are truly frustrating to a select minority, I still believe Toady should focus on the more common bugs (like immigrants being marked Merchant, undead rising too quickly and infinitely, designation advancing time, misc. attribute problems, etc.) or the more severe bugs (crash on zoom-in from truetype, crashes during worldgen, crash assigning to nonexistent squad, crash atomsmashing ghosts, etc.). Eventually, the military will work the way you want it to.[/list][/list][/list][/list][/list]

[ethan]

They are truly frustrating to a select [and controlling] minority!  But.  I understand the multiple gravities of managing a project like this, by oneself.  I don't pay as much attention to the other bugs, just the ones i don't like.

I will never stop loving this game.

[MrWiggles]

Not another, 'Why doens't Toady fix the bugs that personally bother me' threads.

We're in a stint of bug fixes right now. Currently we're having this stint with Part of the Improved Hauling, but I suspect we'll go back into bug fixing after that. Partly to address bugs of the reworked systems for animal taming, and for minecarts.

I know for sure that the bug fixes aren't done yet, as Toady said he was also going to address Dorf On-Fire mentality.
----
And these military bugs are annoying, but I can see why they're on the back burner.

The entire military aspect of the game is going to be touch upon during the fabled Army Arc, and right now the focus of development is domestic stability and domestic dynamic world interactions. And these trading, resource gathering, product creating, resource using, doesnt need more refined/rehashed military for that to work.

I'm also willing to suspect that we'll see good effects when the Personality Rewrite is done, but thats not related to the posted bugs.
-----

The important military issue I feel exists involves where the goblins can't do anything about gates or walls... which makes the game unbalanced for them.  Can you imagine if we had to play this game as the goblins??  Arriving at the dwarven forts where they close the gates and there's nothing for us to do except wait around plus our goblin soldiers being trapped in cages without no way to break them free.  As a result I play where there's always a path leading inside my fort and without cage traps, but I want to have a fortress and enemies attacking my walls and gates.  I know it's on the list of things to be done, but this feels so important to me since sieges are such a major variable in the game.

And for this to be worked upon requires that the Caravan Arc to be done.

[Calathar]

Most of those issues have workarounds, like most of the bugs that Toady glosses over.

- equipment mismatches and the always-popular issues with crossbowmen not using ammo, and training issues related to it
The patrol order (patrolling from the firing spot to the ammo stockpile) works wonders.  I highly recommend doing this.  I haven't had an issue with training, other than my dwarves burning through all of my bolts training.

- stationing at posts (sometimes) and not firing from them
I haven't had this problem.  Try turning your hunting skill off?

- a squaddwarf stuck in a loop repeatedly getting something out of a bin and putting it back
Yes, I had this problem!  And the fix for it?  Reassigning the uniform to my dwarves.  What happened to me is that I changed a uniform, but never went back to the dwarves equip screen and reassign the uniforms, as I thought it would already have been assigned.  Reassigning the uniform fixed the problem.

- no valid reachable target for crossbowmen who have a valid target (not to mention they could move 4 steps and have a target)
I've never had this problem in recent releases.

- going to sleep as soon as they are given orders (probably not a bug, but shouldnt happen!)
Yeah...

[ethan]

all i know is that when i create a point in front of a fortification, and assign a marksmen to it, who has a quiver full of well-crafted copper bolts (on the item is an image of smooth pebbles in schorl)... he stands 3-4 squares away and doesn't fire at the %#@*&# goblin right in front of him, while his favorite livestock are hunted down to his apparent disinterest.