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Author Topic: Wasteland 2!  (Read 34553 times)

Rakonas

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Re: Wasteland 2!
« Reply #60 on: December 18, 2013, 12:45:42 pm »

snip
The point of kickstarter is so that game developers don't have to deal with loans, part ownership, or publishing deals. People who fund a kickstarter want to see the devs' vision of the game, not the investors' vision of the game.
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guitarxe

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Re: Wasteland 2!
« Reply #61 on: December 18, 2013, 12:50:11 pm »

I dont pay for alpha games. Sell me something when its done. The only kickstarters I pay for are for charities or people doing things for fun (such as Cataclym DDA). Companies love the kickstarter funding source because its free money. In the past companies got funding from 3 sources (I have an MBA, its in the textbooks), your own money, loans, or venture capital investments.

Venture Capital investments require equity in the company which is part ownership. Kickstarter allows vendors to go hat in hand to potential companies and say 'please give us money to make you a game, we will make it uber cool'. This is not an 'investment', its a handout. Wasteland 2 raised several million dollars this way. There isn't any legal obligation for them to spend it wisely or pay appropriate salaries. The owners of the company could pay themselves very large salaries and make mistakes spending the money. The people who 'fund' kickstarters have no write to a refund.

Paying $60 for an 'alpha' game is similiar to kickstarter. You are paying early so that people who do not want to invest their own money, get a loan, or get investors can develop a product on your dime. This is essentially free money.

If they have a marketable product than they can go look for venture capital investors and give up equity in their company. This is typically a last resort, because they are not giving up a fixed percentage. So if the game is a huge success the venture capitalists make more money. Unlike people who pay for 'alpha games' or kickstarters they expect a return.

Just look at the 'towns' abandonment (alpha game where the developers got bored and took people's money) or the various kickstarters that never get done. Show me a finished product and then Ill decide if Im going to buy. The threat of 'we will charge you more' doesn't work on me. You will charge me less because I won't buy your product. Besides eventually all games get marked down as they age anyway. I am patient and can wait before spending my money.

Here, here! The only reasonable rebuke of Kickstarter that I have seen on the internet ever since KS had blown up.

Personally, I'm still waiting for that Star Citizen game/multi-game/project-thing to conclude so that I have a very fine reason to point fingers and say "Told ya so!"
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MrWiggles

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Re: Wasteland 2!
« Reply #62 on: December 18, 2013, 03:45:52 pm »

Crowdsourcing never promised to be anymore then that. The issue that folks who do donate to a crowdsource project dont understand that they're donating their money.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2013, 03:55:11 pm by MrWiggles »
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Sergius

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Re: Wasteland 2!
« Reply #63 on: December 18, 2013, 03:48:42 pm »

PTW. I have the cheapest backer option, so I don't get access to Beta.

I watched this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzI31lZzYaw for gameplay and some insights. Guy is a bit lame, doesn't bother spending on skills other than fighting :P (and pays dearly for it)
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PrimusRibbus

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Re: Wasteland 2!
« Reply #64 on: December 18, 2013, 03:58:17 pm »

I dont pay for alpha games. Sell me something when its done. The only kickstarters I pay for are for charities or people doing things for fun (such as Cataclym DDA). Companies love the kickstarter funding source because its free money. In the past companies got funding from 3 sources (I have an MBA, its in the textbooks), your own money, loans, or venture capital investments.

Venture Capital investments require equity in the company which is part ownership. Kickstarter allows vendors to go hat in hand to potential companies and say 'please give us money to make you a game, we will make it uber cool'. This is not an 'investment', its a handout. Wasteland 2 raised several million dollars this way. There isn't any legal obligation for them to spend it wisely or pay appropriate salaries. The owners of the company could pay themselves very large salaries and make mistakes spending the money. The people who 'fund' kickstarters have no write to a refund.

Paying $60 for an 'alpha' game is similiar to kickstarter. You are paying early so that people who do not want to invest their own money, get a loan, or get investors can develop a product on your dime. This is essentially free money.

If they have a marketable product than they can go look for venture capital investors and give up equity in their company. This is typically a last resort, because they are not giving up a fixed percentage. So if the game is a huge success the venture capitalists make more money. Unlike people who pay for 'alpha games' or kickstarters they expect a return.

You're making a HUGE assumption that the creators of these games are even attempting to make a marketable product. Most of the teams on Kickstarter have more in common with artists looking for patrons than entrepreneurs looking for investment.

When it comes to tech startups, the vast majority of VCs are looking for exit plans that end in acquisition (or, very seldomly, IPO). Indie game development is really not an appropriate industry for VC funding, and generally falls short of the revenue and user expectations that interest VC firms. Indie game developers are pretty much limited to Angel Investment, and even then most indie games don't have the sort of financials that mesh well with your average Angel Investor (5 year financials are the SHORTEST I've ever submitted to an AI in a proposal).

Indie game development is apples and oranges to both regular startups and AAA studios. Game development, with perhaps the exception of top AAA development/publishing houses like EA and Blizzard-Activision, is a fairly low revenue, razor thin margin industry, where the majority of products stop bringing in any meaningful revenue within 90 days of their release. I don't know any developer whose motivation was to make a large profit that stayed in indie game development; it's far easier to take that skillset and get a cushy job somewhere else. The indie game developers I've met that are in it for the long haul are there because they want to create art.

Quote
Just look at the 'towns' abandonment (alpha game where the developers got bored and took people's money) or the various kickstarters that never get done. Show me a finished product and then Ill decide if Im going to buy. The threat of 'we will charge you more' doesn't work on me. You will charge me less because I won't buy your product. Besides eventually all games get marked down as they age anyway. I am patient and can wait before spending my money.

Honestly, I'm with you on this. I have no interest in being a patron for artists who may or may not create worthwhile art.

That said, as the video game industry has become increasingly commoditized, there are a fair number of people that are interested in donating towards the development of niche products (for all the perks and window dressing, crowdfunding is still pretty much a donation). I find crowdfunding to be a fascinating twist on a funding model that hasn't been in widespread use for a good century.

At the end of the day, you and I are not Kickstarter's target audience and there's nothing wrong with that. I certainly respect the fact that Kickstarter fits better for other people, though, and I'm thankful for the opportunity to play some of the niche games that would have never been released if not for crowdfunding.
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Sharp

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Re: Wasteland 2!
« Reply #65 on: December 18, 2013, 04:21:26 pm »

Even for some of the bigger games it's nice if the developers don't have to rely on publishers/investors as they can have a lot of sway in how the game is developed, mainly by rushing it or trying to provide their own artists or other assets which might not be the best for the game, of course on the other hand some publishers can make games better then their original plan with their experience.

Funnily enough UFO: Enemy Unknown (X-COM 1) has the latter and X-COM Apocalypse (XCOM 3) has the former.
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Ultimuh

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Re: Wasteland 2!
« Reply #66 on: December 18, 2013, 04:23:07 pm »

PTW! ..Because.. Reasons..
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LeoLeonardoIII

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Re: Wasteland 2!
« Reply #67 on: December 18, 2013, 05:59:28 pm »

Re: kickstarter as patronage for artists

The threshhold pledge system, an ancient crowdsourcing model, is basically Kickstarter minus the website, originally intended as a way to avoid problems with theft of intellectual property through unauthorized copying. You might have a noted composer offer to make a song if he gets $10,000 in pledges. The subscribers would get copies but the artist would still own the rights to the work.

In the more modern Street Performer Protocol, the work is released to the public domain.

Either way, the artist is accepting a small payout up front and he knows that no amount of unauthorized copying can prevent him from getting that amount; it's his minimum gross profit. In the SPP it's probably also his end gross profit, because if it's public domain few will buy it from him. If he produces copies and sells them, he competes with everyone else who also sells copies, so his profit margins will be vanishingly small.

//

Anyway, the point of all this is what KS backers have learned to their dismay: you can't trust the slick salesman. You need proof that the artist will create a work you would want to pay for. If the artist is terrible you can expect all his work will be terrible; if the artist is unproven you don't know and the risk isn't worth it. If Mozart says he's gonna make a song you know what you're gonna get is golden. If Joe Pianist says he's gonna make a song you say, "Great, go make it and when I hear it I'll decide if I wanna buy it."

So while KS may originally have been intended as a way to back up-and-coming creators, it's turned cynical because of all the scams and failures and washouts. Now it's for established indies and small companies.
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Meta

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Re: Wasteland 2!
« Reply #68 on: December 18, 2013, 06:27:14 pm »

Please guys, stay on track.
I want to know whether or not Wasteland 2 is a great game. I don't want to read your general opinions on KS and EA here.
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MrWiggles

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Re: Wasteland 2!
« Reply #69 on: December 18, 2013, 06:54:43 pm »

You know, EA does not get enough credit for all the work they do with Indie game devs.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2013, 09:06:37 pm by MrWiggles »
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nenjin

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Re: Wasteland 2!
« Reply #70 on: December 18, 2013, 07:14:46 pm »

In this case I believe he was referring to Early Access.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2013, 08:12:42 pm by nenjin »
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LeoLeonardoIII

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Re: Wasteland 2!
« Reply #71 on: December 18, 2013, 08:11:15 pm »

You know, EA does not get enough credit for all the word they do with Indie game devs.
Is ... is this like saying the Mafia doesn't get enough credit for the work they do with small local businesses?
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MrWiggles

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Re: Wasteland 2!
« Reply #72 on: December 18, 2013, 09:07:21 pm »

You know, EA does not get enough credit for all the word they do with Indie game devs.
Is ... is this like saying the Mafia doesn't get enough credit for the work they do with small local businesses?
No.

The EA Partner Program is fantastic. Lots of great games have got the resources and or money they need.
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kcwong

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Re: Wasteland 2!
« Reply #73 on: December 19, 2013, 12:15:53 am »

Will get this on GoG. Even if it costs more than Steam. I dislike DRMs in any form, and would even pay a little extra to get rid of them.

As far as I can tell Wasteland 2 isn't using Steamworks.  Given that the only restriction is having to download it from Steam's servers, how exactly is GoG any different?

There was a time when the type of DRM used (disc check? install limit? E.T. phone home?) wasn't openly declared. I had to search for the developer's/publisher's statement on which kind was used.

Then there's the problem of accuracy of such statements. It cannot be from an outsider, must be the developer/publisher. And even that might change... e.g. early on the developer may want no DRM, but later they wanted to make use of SteamWorks to save some development effort. In that case I must look for statements after release where it's all settled.

If I buy from GoG, then it's crystal clear that I won't get any DRM. Plus, I like GoG and will always give them business over Steam. And then Steam over Origin/UPlay.
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MrWiggles

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Re: Wasteland 2!
« Reply #74 on: December 19, 2013, 12:33:05 am »

Will get this on GoG. Even if it costs more than Steam. I dislike DRMs in any form, and would even pay a little extra to get rid of them.

As far as I can tell Wasteland 2 isn't using Steamworks.  Given that the only restriction is having to download it from Steam's servers, how exactly is GoG any different?

There was a time when the type of DRM used (disc check? install limit? E.T. phone home?) wasn't openly declared. I had to search for the developer's/publisher's statement on which kind was used.

Then there's the problem of accuracy of such statements. It cannot be from an outsider, must be the developer/publisher. And even that might change... e.g. early on the developer may want no DRM, but later they wanted to make use of SteamWorks to save some development effort. In that case I must look for statements after release where it's all settled.

If I buy from GoG, then it's crystal clear that I won't get any DRM. Plus, I like GoG and will always give them business over Steam. And then Steam over Origin/UPlay.
Pretty sure gog is owned by EA or has deep ties with EA & Origin.
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