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[Leafsnail]

I fail to see how empathy would get in the way of any doctor related duties. There are two situations where it might play a factor, but not be the problem:

1) Cracking under stress. Not the problem of them caring too much about their patient, just their inability to control their emotions.
2) Giving priority to certain individuals and violating triage. If anything, it's because they're giving unequal amounts of empathy to each of their patients. The problem is imbalance, not the existence of empathy.

I guess you haven't considered the problems associated with feeling someone's pain while trying to treat that pain?  There'd be no way to provide someone with adequate care if you're constantly wincing and feeling ill while doing it.  It's also very difficult to inflict pain on someone if you have empathy, and often it's necessary to do so in order to ultimately make them better.

I guess it often doesn't go as far as sociopathy since sociopathy has a bunch of weirdly defined anti-social elements, but there's definitely a loss of empathy in doctors (http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=doctors-and-dehumanization-effect).  Nevertheless, it means that doctors can sometimes test positive for low empathy disorders, and I feel it's unfair to assume that they're acting selfishly because of that.

[Lord Dullard]

Traits of a sociopath:
Glibness/superficial charm
Grandiose/Egocentric
Lack of remorse/guilt
Callous/lack of empathy
Deceitful
Manipulative
Emotionally shallow
Impulsive/Poor behavior control
Need for excitement
Lack of responsibility
Early behavior problems
Parasitic/Antisocial lifestyle

See, this is why I think most people who willingly describe themselves as sociopaths are trying to define themselves as the 'cool' sociopath that is typified in anime and similar media nowadays (Kazuo Kiriyama, anyone?) rather than understanding what a sociopath is really like. As an example, take Hitler, who exhibited almost all of these traits - but it's almost certain he would have never admitted to any of them, because he was EXTREMELY sensitive to criticism (probably part of that 'lack of responsibility' bit).

I think most people who claim to be 'sociopaths' are just indulging in fantasy about their personality being 'evil' and somehow cool because of that. I.e., having a daydream about taking over the world, or enjoying games where you do the same, does not make you a megalomaniac, even though it's kind of fun to imagine being an insane powermonger.

[kaijyuu]

When have I stated that there is anything wrong with vengeance, or punishment?

You haven't. I have.

I'd rather do the right thing for the wrong reasons than the wrong thing for the right reasons. Motives should always be second to consequences.

A pragmatic viewpoint, but rather irrelevant to the subject of respecting a person's character.

Take these two:

1) Millionaire donates to a bunch of hospitals to get his name on the front door.
2) Millionaire donates to a bunch of hospitals anonymously.

Who holds greater respect in your eyes? Both did the right thing, but for different reasons.



(it's difficult to get a comparison between "right for wrong" and "wrong for right" since the latter requires ignorance or circumstance to get in the way.
And PS: Erroneously believing the end justifies an unreasonable means is not "doing the wrong thing for the right reasons" unless they don't know the full consequences of the means beforehand. That's plain doing the wrong thing for the wrong reasons.)

I guess you haven't considered the problems associated with feeling someone's pain while trying to treat that pain?  There'd be no way to provide someone with adequate care if you're constantly wincing and feeling ill while doing it.  It's also very difficult to inflict pain on someone if you have empathy, and often it's necessary to do so in order to ultimately make them better.

I would file that under "cracking under stress." So I guess we agree with each other, save maybe some semantics.

[Trapezohedron]

I fail to see how empathy would get in the way of any doctor related duties. There are two situations where it might play a factor, but not be the problem:

1) Cracking under stress. Not the problem of them caring too much about their patient, just their inability to control their emotions.
2) Giving priority to certain individuals and violating triage. If anything, it's because they're giving unequal amounts of empathy to each of their patients. The problem is imbalance, not the existence of empathy.

I guess you haven't considered the problems associated with feeling someone's pain while trying to treat that pain?  There'd be no way to provide someone with adequate care if you're constantly wincing and feeling ill while doing it.  It's also very difficult to inflict pain on someone if you have empathy, and often it's necessary to do so in order to ultimately make them better.

I guess it often doesn't go as far as sociopathy since sociopathy has a bunch of weirdly defined anti-social elements, but there's definitely a loss of empathy in doctors (http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=doctors-and-dehumanization-effect).  Nevertheless, it means that doctors can sometimes test positive for low empathy disorders, and I feel it's unfair to assume that they're acting selfishly because of that.

Does this mean that doctors are less receptive to Sharing the Male Pain?

[MorleyDev]

1) Millionaire donates to a bunch of hospitals to get his name on the front door.
2) Millionaire donates to a bunch of hospitals anonymously.

I assume that second millionaire gets something else out of the donation, some other boon than their name on the door. As such both are equal in my eyes.

[kaijyuu]

And if he refuses any sort of reward (tax break/etc)?

End result is again identical.

[MorleyDev]

And if he refuses any sort of reward (tax break/etc)?

End result is again identical.

He either wants to impress someone, wants to convince himself of something or boost his own ego, or if guilt is it's own consequence he wants to alleviate his. Or I don't believe he can exist so this discussion is pointless.

[Lord Dullard]

Non-altruistic people will never understand altruism or believe it can be anything other than greed in disguise.

Regardless, altruism as an individual trait has societal benefits and there are reasons for its evolution, so it doesn't matter too much either way whether they believe it's real or not.

[kaijyuu]

Eeyup.


Hard to explain this stuff when all they can see is selfishness and/or some weird karmic balance thing.

[MorleyDev]

I'm fine with the concept of tit-for-tat, reciprocal altruism. That's just another aspect of the social contract. I hold door open for you, you hold door open for me, everybody get through door in timely manner.

If you analyse every single "selfless" act in enough depth you'll find a reason for them to act as a result of self-interest, or at least genetic interest. The closest you get to exceptions tend to involve extreme brainwashing, such as military service.

Selflessness is a cute little lie we tell ourselves and society, I've seen no support for it. And I don't think it somehow dampens or darkness a single damn thing anybody has done.

But I doubt we'll agree on this.

[GalenEvil]

Surprised that this thread got so many responses... 4 pages? Wow...

Well, it's time to close this one up so that it can find a place far down in the vault of locked topics

Just a small clarification... This was not a joke thread. It was so that I could gather some opinions and general factoids to store away for a later time. I do not consider myself a socio/psycho-path, though based on the traits of being a sociopath I could place a bet that most people have a majority of the traits. The traits are broad and apply to a vast number of people, so much so that I can heartily say that, according to the traits list, every one of my friends is a sociopath to a greater or lesser degree.

I am not sure of any cartoon/anime sociopaths that are actually useful to model oneself after. That doesn't mean there aren't, just that with my limited knowledge of cartoons and anime there aren't any that I would model myself after. I don't feel like I am a Megalomaniac either, though world domination in any form or fashion is generally fun to think about and plan towards. You must have a goal to get anywhere in the world, so might as well make your goal the world and work towards that (lol)! Keeps the boredom away at least while I work...

Okay, topic will be locked in a day or so so if you have any further comments I suggest you make them...

GalenEvil

[MorleyDev]

Well sure, everybody possibly has some of the traits some/most of the time. But just because it has a few gears doesn't mean it's a clock. A "psycho/sociopath" is the 'sum of all parts', that most of those traits are present and functioning in an individual.

[kaijyuu]

Just a small clarification... This was not a joke thread. It was so that I could gather some opinions and general factoids to store away for a later time. I do not consider myself a socio/psycho-path, though based on the traits of being a sociopath I could place a bet that most people have a majority of the traits. The traits are broad and apply to a vast number of people, so much so that I can heartily say that, according to the traits list, every one of my friends is a sociopath to a greater or lesser degree.

Yeah everyone is a selfish douchebag to some degree. Everyone is manipulative at some point. Everyone considers the consequences only so far as it affects them to some degree.

A sociopath is ALWAYS manipulative and ALWAYS uncaring to consequences that don't affect them (directly or indirectly).



Honestly it's a rather easy question to answer. Character is who you are in the dark: If you could get away with something (murder or whatever) with absolutely zero repercussions, would you do it? If your answer is "no" or even "yes but I'd feel bad about it" then you're not a sociopath. If you don't see your friends as a means to an end (be it fun or company or whatever) but as people you care about, then you're not a sociopath.

[Fenrir]

I'm fine with the concept of tit-for-tat, reciprocal altruism. That's just another aspect of the social contract. I hold door open for you, you hold door open for me, everybody get through door in timely manner.

If you analyse every single "selfless" act in enough depth you'll find a reason for them to act as a result of self-interest, or at least genetic interest. The closest you get to exceptions tend to involve extreme brainwashing, such as military service.

Selflessness is a cute little lie we tell ourselves and society, I've seen no support for it. And I don't think it somehow dampens or darkness a single damn thing anybody has done.

I have doubts that anyone calculates the benefits of helping others before deciding to be altruistic. Yes, being altruistic has benefits, but that does not mean that everyone has those in mind when they do it. I don’t.

[kaijyuu]

I can distinguish between them.


A philosophy or psychology major will probably be foaming at the mouth at my extreme oversimplification, but basically it goes like this:


Everyone does everything they do for one of two reasons:
1) Gaining pleasure/happiness/etc. Positive emotions.
2) Avoiding pain/sadness/etc. Negative emotions.


A cynical person would point to #1 and say that everyone does everything for personal benefit. To these people, I say you're missing the point.

What differentiates people is what makes them happy or sad. It's the methods they use to gain those positive emotions and avoid the negative ones.


An altruistic person gains pleasure simply by helping someone. There is no further goal, as by helping someone, they've already reached it and gained their positive emotion.

On the other hand, a selfish person only gains pleasure through other means. Helping someone does not make them happy. They will only help others so far as others can help them in return.



A sociopath can be a perfectly valuable member of society. They will justify ALL their actions through believing that if they help others, they will get help in return. A sort of wacky karmic balance. This is fine and pragmatic, which is why sociopaths don't really deserve anger or indignation or hate directed at them solely for being a sociopath. You just probably don't want to be friends with them, because all they'll ever see of you is a tool. A means to an end. They only care for you as much as you have power to affect their life.


EDIT: I should note that no one is 100% altruistic and very very few people are 100% selfish. It varies in degrees for most everyone. Most people will help others just to help others AND so they can get help in return. It's not a dichotomy; not at all.
It's also why most definitions of "sociopath" and "psychopath" are bupkis, since someone who's just mostly a jerk would probably still fit those definitions. It also doesn't take sadism into account, the only trait that actually does deserve indignation.