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[Urist Imiknorris]

Hapah:

If they were the scum team, they'd want Native to hang, not muck up the conversation with all this cult or two different mafia nonsense.

The conversation D4 re: third parties did not detract from Native's impending lynch. If anything, it detracted from the examination of possible other candidates for Tiruin's buddy.

Urist also put the screws to Native early into D4 here.

Book's argument was persuasive. I decided that it was a valid cause for suspicion, and began my own line of questioning.

I agree that a Jack lynch would be an acceptable compromise, should a Book lynch be impossible. If Jack flips "town" (as I suspect would be the case), Book would be confirmed scum for all to see. Otherwise, we lynch scum and hopefully someone is able to confirm me tonight.

Mod: When does the day end?

Book: What was the flavor for your scroll of ill will? As much detail as you can go into without directly quoting, please, and pay special attention to the hints that described its effect.

[Hapah]

Urist: On your first point, this is true: Native's fate was more or less sealed by that point already, I suppose.

And oh yes, the argument was very persuasive. I was mulling it over a bit before I hopped on, but Native's scroll slip blew all my doubts away.

And I would feel much, MUCH better about a Jack lynch than a Book lynch. It seems much safer. And man, if you and Book are a team, you two need a damn award.

And I hope the day ends Monday. You did call for a short extend, but we don't know if it ends today or Monday. In any case, I hope we can get the longer. I'd like everyone's opinions, especially Jack's, and getting those all (and allow for responses and dialogue) in in the four or so hours that would be left today would be very difficult.

The one actual question I have, though, is how Jack flipping town makes you beyond-a-doubt town or Book certainly scum. It would give us more evidence, certainly, but I don't see how it makes it black-and-white as you do.

[Urist Imiknorris]

It would confirm Book as scum by confirming Jack's town result on me N1, although I will admit it isn't exactly perfect.

Also Book: I don't think you ever actually explained why you assumed scum would target you tonight?

[Bookthras]

Imiknorris:

Okay then, using what I know (which I've already stated multiple times), construct a plausible alternative to you being scum. If you can do that I'll reconsider my certainty of your alignment.

Yeah, sure. That would mean me repeating and giving credence to your lies, so no; I love how you ask me for speculation while also accusing me of "drowning the thread" with speculation. If brief, though, remember that you yourself offered several cases where people with motivations for a fakeclaim exist; it may have been an innocent gambit at that point, and too expensive now to own up to. Even for townies (dead or alive), it's a mistake to always take their claims at face value. So it's certainly possible. But you being Jack's buddy or he lying are much more likely.

And about claiming certainties about people's alignments, your first comment to Native was:

NativeForeigner: You are Tiruin's scumbuddy.

So you're full of shit on that point.

You are being disingenuous scum. I never claimed "100% certainty", as you did. I word accusations as accusations, otherwise they don't pressure. Only you claim revealed knowledge.

You're also the one proposing actions (not extending) that are clearly anti-town.

You mean anti-you.

Curtailing discussion is anti-town, regardless of who hangs. Discussion is what makes or breaks the town's chances, and the very point of the day game.

Book: What was the flavor for your scroll of ill will? As much detail as you can go into without directly quoting, please, and pay special attention to the hints that described its effect.

I read the scroll at him, and saw a malignant aura forming around his pack, which I misread as "around his back". Since I had assumed I wouldn't know the result, I didn't give it a second glance until Toaster's comment made me look back at it. Upon my asking, he confirmed he meant "pack" as in "backpack/equipment".

Also Book: I don't think you ever actually explained why you assumed scum would target you tonight?

Sure I did: I immodestly think I'm a priority target for scum ("daykill Book on D1" used to be a fad around here for a while). Wouldn't you have had an easier time this day if I had died last night?


Hapah:

The one actual question I have, though, is how Jack flipping town makes you beyond-a-doubt town or Book certainly scum. It would give us more evidence, certainly, but I don't see how it makes it black-and-white as you do.

Because he's town, silly! Hasn't the hundred times he's said it convince you yet? Maybe if he lists out his knowledge a couple more times he'll convince you.

And I hope the day ends Monday. You did call for a short extend, but we don't know if it ends today or Monday.

I doubt Toaster would end the day on a weekend, especially without at least a warning. But just to be on the safe side: Mod: Extend until Monday, please. I also don't want the day to end without at least one substantial post from Jack.

About your earlier post, I agree Jack is a better choice for lynch today, and he was my original target for the day. Based on his earlier scumminess, his replies to my posts, his actions on MrD's and Native's wagons, his suspect night actions, and interactions with UI, I'm fine with Jack hanging today, but I think Imiknorris's opposition to extension, faith, tunneling, arguments and actions are scummy enough that if people prefer to hang him, I'm ready to support it. Scum is at least one of these two, and likely both.


Shakerag: You have been strangely absent. Your thoughts please, in general, and in particular about Imiknorris's extension shenanigans, Jack's merit as lynch candidate, and Hapah's earlier arguments.

[Hapah]

Extend until Monday. I don't know when the day ends, but better safe than sorry!

[Toaster]

Derp.  I completely forgot to mention the day was extended to Monday in the last vote count.  My bad!  As such, I'm disregarding both those "extend to Monday" requests as the day was already extended to that.  If you want another one, just ask.


Vote Count:

Jack A T:   Hapah, Bookthras
Bookthras:  Urist Imiknorris, Jack A T
Shakerag:
Urist Imiknorris:
Hapah: 

Not Voting:  Shakerag

Day 5 will last until Monday, 5/21 at 11 PM EST.

[Urist Imiknorris]

Book:

Sure I did: I immodestly think I'm a priority target for scum ("daykill Book on D1" used to be a fad around here for a while). Wouldn't you have had an easier time this day if I had died last night?

Possibly, if you don't have a buddy, as the game would quite possibly be over had that been the case. Otherwise I'd be attacking Jack. If anyone but you is lynched, either you or the survivor has to be scum, so killing you makes absolutely zero sense. So why would you fakeclaim your danger scroll in hopes of being attacked, as you wouldn't be attacked but would have a very good chance of being targeted by a townsperson? Your fakeclaim was just as anti-town as you claim my opposition to an extension was, if not more so, as it would almost certainly have led to the death of a townie if it hadn't been revealed. And if someone gets lynched, a townie kills themselves on you and you kill another tonight, that's game over scum win, isn't it?

Hapah: I think I may have found your answer as to why solo scum would have nokilled last night.

Back to Book:

Yeah, sure. That would mean me repeating and giving credence to your lies, so no; I love how you ask me for speculation while also accusing me of "drowning the thread" with speculation.

What lies. In order for you to be town, what must I be lying about?

If brief, though, remember that you yourself offered several cases where people with motivations for a fakeclaim exist; it may have been an innocent gambit at that point, and too expensive now to own up to. Even for townies (dead or alive), it's a mistake to always take their claims at face value. So it's certainly possible. But you being Jack's buddy or he lying are much more likely.

I have repeatedly stated and explained (and you have repeatedly ignored) how if Jack's lying then you're at the same time both cross-aligned scum with Jack and expressly interested in his survival. So how is Jack lying at all likely?

Scum is at least one of these two, and likely both.

Please explain exactly why you believe I could be solo scum. Otherwise, you're forgetting your own premise from directly above - that Jack is scum and possibly me. You are stating that either Jack and I are buddies and both fakeclaiming, Jack and I are buddies and tried to safely exploit his Danger Scroll, or that Jack's faking the danger scroll and the kill I stopped came from another source. How does any of that leave the possibility of me being the last scum? And if nothing, why state the possibility? Also, for the case of Jack and I trying to safely use the danger scroll, why did that not occur to you immediately? Why wait all this time to bring it up?

Even for townies (dead or alive), it's a mistake to always take their claims at face value. So it's certainly possible. But you being Jack's buddy or he lying are much more likely.

Yes, of course. Trust nobody, not even confirmed townies. WHY THE FUCK WOULD A TOWNIE LIE. Also, if he flips town, then him lying means you're fakeclaiming either a kill on him (and why would you have done that instead of outing lying scum?) or a redirect from him to himself (same question). Tell me, if he flips town are you going to try to claim he's a death anti-miller again?

You are being disingenuous scum. I never claimed "100% certainty", as you did. I word accusations as accusations, otherwise they don't pressure.

And you are being backtracking scum. It is entirely possible to make accusations that include (but do not declare) the possibility of you being wrong. For instance, not definitively stating "you are scum." You did.

Only you claim revealed knowledge.

I do not. I claim a logical conclusion. That is an entirely different beast, as the process by which I came to it can be documented, scrutinized, and the conclusion possibly found invalid.

Curtailing discussion is anti-town, regardless of who hangs. Discussion is what makes or breaks the town's chances, and the very point of the day game.

Not if scum is lynched and only zero-one viable candidates for scumhood remain. (to wit: Either you are scum or you and Jack are scum, and lynching you would demonstrate that perfectly)

I read the scroll at him, and saw a malignant aura forming around his pack, which I misread as "around his back". Since I had assumed I wouldn't know the result, I didn't give it a second glance until Toaster's comment made me look back at it. Upon my asking, he confirmed he meant "pack" as in "backpack/equipment".

Thank you.

Because he's town, silly! Hasn't the hundred times he's said it convince you yet? Maybe if he lists out his knowledge a couple more times he'll convince you.

And how many times do you expect to have to say you're town before people believe you?

[Urist Imiknorris]

EBWOP:

What lies. In order for you to be town, what must I be lying about?

Besides the obvious one.

[Bookthras]

EBWOP:

What lies. In order for you to be town, what must I be lying about?

Besides the obvious one.

What, isn't the obvious one enough? You lying about being town would explain everything, yes? But lying about the protection would do it as well, wouldn't it? You don't even need to be scum for that, merely anotha brotha from anotha motha. Or a lyncher with me as a target. Or a number of other combinations.

Possibly, if you don't have a buddy,[...] So why would you fakeclaim your danger scroll in hopes of being attacked, [...] as you wouldn't be attacked but would have a very good chance of being targeted by a townsperson? [...] if he flips town, [...] Not if scum is lynched [...] why would you have done that instead of outing lying scum? [...]

Oh gods, who is now drowning the thread with speculation? I thought you were against that? This is a bottomless well of wine.

as it would almost certainly have led to the death of a townie if it hadn't been revealed.

Not so. A townie would be much more likely to be protected, which would save them. A scum would be far less so. Plus I thought it likely that townies who wanted to target me would have done that already before then, and if I had caught the scum with it, the game would either be over anyway, or the choice for leftover buddy pretty clear. Not without risk, surely, but I'm not a cautious fellow, and the potential gains were huge.

I have repeatedly stated and explained (and you have repeatedly ignored) how if Jack's lying then you're at the same time both cross-aligned scum with Jack and expressly interested in his survival. So how is Jack lying at all likely?

How have I been expressly interested in his survival? This makes no sense.

Yes, of course. Trust nobody, not even confirmed townies. WHY THE FUCK WOULD A TOWNIE LIE.

Absolutely. Ask Hapah. One should never assume in this game that people aren't lying, regardless of alignment. People, even townies, may lie as a gambit or trap, or to seek reactions/counterclaims, or by accident (technically a mistake rather than a lie, but still an untruth), or because they panicked under pressure (yeah, even townies do that, and Native panicked badly), or for any number of other reasons. That's why scumhunting is important: to find the motivation behind people's words. That's what reveals alignment, not whether they have or have not bent the truth in one way or another.

Tell me, if he flips town are you going to try to claim he's a death anti-miller again?

I never "tried to claim" Native was a death miller, please don't put words in my mouth. I asked the question. If Jack happens to flip town (which I doubt), I would not ask the same question again, since Toaster already answered it. If I hadn't thought about it asking it earlier and it seemed a possibility, sure. Question your assumptions and all that.

You are being disingenuous scum. I never claimed "100% certainty", as you did. I word accusations as accusations, otherwise they don't pressure.

And you are being backtracking scum. It is entirely possible to make accusations that include (but do not declare) the possibility of you being wrong. For instance, not definitively stating "you are scum." You did.

So, when you are saying you are "100% certain" I'm scum, you're just as certain as when you told MrD and Native that they were scum as well? Good to know.

Scum is at least one of these two, and likely both.

Please explain exactly why you believe I could be solo scum. Otherwise, you're forgetting your own premise from directly above - that Jack is scum and possibly me.

Because people acting scummy and revealing their motivations trumps the convoluted speculation about claims and counterclaims and who may be lying about what, since you can never be 100% certain (well, you can). You have acted very very scummy, therefore I feel very justified in saying you are scum. As to how that fits together with Jack's, it may be a matter of 3rd parties (brother/mafia-ally) or some other faction weirdness at work, or it may be something else.

I will grant, however, that you being scumbuddies is more likely than you being solo scum. If you are not buddies, then it's more likely he's Tiruin's buddy and you are a different sort of ally. But I can't rule you as solo scum out, given how horrendously scummy you've acted. It may just be incorrect assumptions or a failure of imagination to come up with the correct scenario.

Also, for the case of Jack and I trying to safely use the danger scroll, why did that not occur to you immediately? Why wait all this time to bring it up?

I never thought of it. That was Hapah. When I read it I thought "yeah, good point", but I didn't even bring it up. Your tunneling is making you trip over yourself, dude. Watch out, it may look scummy.

[Bookthras]

Correction on my previous post. I had forgotten this:

UI asked me earlier whether I thought it likely that the scum team was Tiruin-Jack-UI. I said not really, since he also visited GG N1 and seemed pretty hostile to Tiruin D2, and it was his interactions with Jack that stood out.

But given today's conversation and a quick reread, I'm no longer sure it's that unlikely. The N1 visit to GG could have been for a "curse armour" as easily as an "enchanting" one (or some other assistance to help Tiruin's chances of success). Plus he's the one that started the wagon on MrD giving Tiruin a chance to live another day (followed pretty much immediately by both Tiruin and Jack).

So in retrospect, I don't see it as unlikely. I still think Jack's a better bet, but Imiknorris is plenty scummy on his own right.

So yeah, with that in mind, UI as solo scum is possible. Jack's still probably a better bet for a lynch, but this scumbucket is scummy as all fuck.

[Urist Imiknorris]

Unexpectedly busy, will post tonight/tomorrow.

[Hapah]

No worries. Really just waiting for Jack and Shake to weigh in.

[Bookthras]

Unexpectedly busy, will post tonight/tomorrow.

Oh man! But we were having such fun!

[Urist Imiknorris]

Absolutely exhausted. I have a nice long post I want to write up, but it'll have to wait until tomorrow morning when I've gotten some sleep.

(I was shanghai'd into moving all the stuff out of my dad's old tool shed, organizing it all, putting it in his new tool shed, then tearing down the old one and disposing of the wreckage)

[Urist Imiknorris]

Actually, fuck it. I don't care enough anymore to play town, so I'm not going to even bother with your arguments unless other people want me to. That makes this post much easier.

Unexpectedly busy, will post tonight/tomorrow.

Oh man! But we were having such fun!

It stops now. I was going to type up a huge post tomorrow filled with vitriol and argument, as I am wont to do (having seemingly been possessed by Dariush's vengeful ghost), but I realized that I was going about this all wrong. This is a case for the truth.

I am a lyncher to Shakerag. He has angered the gods, and as such I (a loyal paladin) have been sent to follow him into this danger and ensure that it consumes him as punishment. I win if I'm alive when he is lynched. If he is nightkilled I become town (with the wincon I claimed D4), unless I'm dead, in which case I lose regardless. All of my action claims are genuine, but my inventory claim is off by a scroll of inspection.

This is my first time playing third party, and I thought I could just play town and seize a chance to drive a lynch on him, but that stopped being a viable plan when the scum tried to kill him. I honestly shouldn't have used a confirmable action N2, and I shouldn't have claimed it immediately, but oh well, learn from your mistakes and all that. If I had been thinking N2 I would have gotten Shake D3 with a faked third-party inspect, but that didn't occur to me until halfway through D4. And now there's no way in hell town would mislynch him, and suggesting a plan that would let scum mislynch him would get me lynched for certain. As I can no longer pursue my wincon, I'm only interested in taking the scumteam (who bear most of the responsibility for my inevitable loss) with me and hoping they'll take another crack at Shakerag tonight, preferably with more success., so that I might actually have a chance to win with town.

Book, get lynched, kill-waster. You had two nights to kill Shakerag and you did nothing.

In the meantime, Jack.