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Author Topic: Victory!  (Read 4995 times)

BaronNinja

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Victory!
« on: April 08, 2012, 08:36:55 pm »

Henceforth ye shall celebrate all the liberalizations that ye has enacted of the country.



In celebration of my first victory.
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Yannanth

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« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2012, 01:25:44 pm »

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« Last Edit: November 21, 2016, 06:07:05 pm by Yannanth »
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Capital Fish

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Re: Victory!
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2012, 02:29:22 pm »

You spent over three hundred thousand dollars? Is that figure crazy or am I missing out on something?

You mean you don't give every LCS member their own private sports car?
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BaronNinja

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Re: Victory!
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2012, 04:36:36 pm »

Well with ~25 sleepers at 100% efficiency embezzling from the Intelligence HQ for ten years... Let's just say I had a lot of disposable income.
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Jonathan S. Fox

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Re: Victory!
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2012, 05:15:16 pm »

Well with ~25 sleepers at 100% efficiency embezzling from the Intelligence HQ for ten years... Let's just say I had a lot of disposable income.

I found the federal budget deficit.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Victory!
« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2012, 10:16:59 pm »

I wonder how the CCS makes their money.
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lordcooper

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Re: Victory!
« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2012, 11:08:23 pm »

From the sweat and blood of the common man.
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Elodie Hiras

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Re: Victory!
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2012, 02:26:46 am »

They are probably corporate and politics funded. That would make sense in the LCS universe.
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Zangi

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Re: Victory!
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2012, 01:35:47 pm »

They are probably corporate and politics funded. That would make sense in the LCS universe.
Isn't that the same thing as:
From the sweat and blood of the common man.
?
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mainiac

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Re: Victory!
« Reply #9 on: April 13, 2012, 01:41:30 pm »

I'm a market fundamentalist.  I believe in the immaculate production.  A capitalist who is free of sin will have Reagan appear to him in a dream, bringing tidings of joy.  9 months later, money will miraculously appear in the accounts of businesses favored by this capitalist completely independently of the labors of people doing the 9-5 jobs.
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"Don't tell me what you value. Show me your budget and I will tell you what you value"
« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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EuchreJack

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Re: Victory!
« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2012, 09:39:03 pm »

They are probably corporate and politics funded. That would make sense in the LCS universe.
Isn't that the same thing as:
From the sweat and blood of the common man.
?

To paraphrase mainiac's statement: No.

Actually, it's possible to make money on the stock market by betting a company will be less profitable than expected.

And in reality, the entire stock market doesn't measure whether or not companies do a lot of work, or even whether companies are profitable, but rather how companies perform relative to how they are expected to perform.

Reelya

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Re: Victory!
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2012, 03:14:58 pm »

Well, now we get into the realm of why money has value at all. Labor gives money value. This is clear if you think what would happen if everybody stopped working. Goods would become scarce, therefore prices would skyrocket, which is the same thing as money losing most of it's value.

Jonathan S. Fox

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Re: Victory!
« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2012, 05:17:28 pm »

Well, now we get into the realm of why money has value at all. Labor gives money value. This is clear if you think what would happen if everybody stopped working. Goods would become scarce, therefore prices would skyrocket, which is the same thing as money losing most of it's value.

That's what Adam Smith thought, so you're in good company with that logic. Adam Smith's theories of economics weren't hindered by this perspective, though he did have to split the idea of price into "natural price" (the price you would expect from the labor put into the goods) and "market price" (the price we actually see in practice). Despite this, the whole labor theory of value seemed forced to some later economists, and I agree. I'll give a couple of examples to make the case that money derives its value directly from goods and services, and labor is merely one way we produce them.

Imagine that nobody is working, but each person has a vending machine in their room that dispenses, on a regular schedule, some kind of unique good that only that person has. Some people get pumpkin pies, some people get window cleaner, some people get iPhones. Each person in this community is given a fixed amount of money. They must trade amongst themselves to get the resources they need to survive. In this economy, there is no labor, but goods and money still have value. How can the absence of labor devalue anything if an economy still functions more or less normally when it is entirely absent?

If that seems too abstract and unrealistic, then consider two people. One is a brilliant artist who sits down once a day to spend fifteen minutes sketching out a beautiful drawing that she can take to the market and sell for a hundred dollars. The other is an aspiring artist who labors twelve hours a day, but produces a large volume of laboriously crafted work, but nobody wants to buy it, because the aesthetic quality is lower. You can see in this example that how hard they work is nothing but a footnote -- what matters is the goods themselves.*

The purpose of these examples is to show that the intuitive conclusion of your example -- that the absence of labor creates scarcity which drives up prices -- isn't necessarily tied to the absence of labor. The value of money is only related to goods and services, and is independent of how much labor went into those goods and services. If nobody works, prices don't go up because the absence of labor is depriving money of value, prices go up because the number of goods in the system is decreasing while the amount of money is held constant, so the amount of goods each dollar or euro or yen corresponds to is decreasing.

If you want to devalue money, all you have to do is print lots of it. If money isn't scarce, its value goes down, because the amount of money is disproportionate to the amount of goods in the economy. If you want to increase the value of money, then slowly drain it out of the system. The goods in the system are constant or increasing, but the amount of money is decreasing, so each unit of increasingly scarce currency corresponds to a larger and larger amount of goods.

* If the thought comes up that the first artist gets more money because she works less and therefore her works are more scarce, then what if she spends the same twelve hours painting a single picture instead of five minutes sketching one; intuitively, would she not then make substantially more money from her daily paintings than from her sketches? She can have the same labor as the other artist or much less, and it doesn't really matter -- only the quality of the product matters.
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Reelya

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Re: Victory!
« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2012, 05:59:00 pm »

Imagine that nobody is working, but each person has a vending machine in their room that dispenses, on a regular schedule, some kind of unique good that only that person has. Some people get pumpkin pies, some people get window cleaner, some people get iPhones. Each person in this community is given a fixed amount of money. They must trade amongst themselves to get the resources they need to survive. In this economy, there is no labor, but goods and money still have value. How can the absence of labor devalue anything if an economy still functions more or less normally when it is entirely absent?

In that case, there's still effort required to extract the resource. Because someone has to be in the room to collect it and there's time consumed in exchanging the goods, so even though the goods are extremely cheap compared to the real world, they're not labor or time-free.

It's incorrect to say "there is no labor" in that example. I won't quote the rest, but will say that I wasn't trying to make a linear connection between labor in hours and market price, in any mathematical sense. But I will say, in the absense of any effort money becomes worthless. What money does in our economy is to motivate effort/action from others, whether that effort is to deliver goods or services. I think that the concept of a direct exchange of money for goods itself is an abstraction. Every exchange requires some form of real-world action.

Jonathan S. Fox

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Re: Victory!
« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2012, 07:29:40 pm »

Imagine that nobody is working, but each person has a vending machine in their room that dispenses, on a regular schedule, some kind of unique good that only that person has. Some people get pumpkin pies, some people get window cleaner, some people get iPhones. Each person in this community is given a fixed amount of money. They must trade amongst themselves to get the resources they need to survive. In this economy, there is no labor, but goods and money still have value. How can the absence of labor devalue anything if an economy still functions more or less normally when it is entirely absent?

In that case, there's still effort required to extract the resource. Because someone has to be in the room to collect it and there's time consumed in exchanging the goods, so even though the goods are extremely cheap compared to the real world, they're not labor or time-free.

It's easy to come up with an alternative, where a single person, alone in the universe, has a fixed budget to spend at many vending machines providing various goods. The money this person has still has value, even though no other humans exist whose time or labor can be commanded.

Alternatively, by applying the logic of your response to your own example, you can see that the same amount of labor still exists there too. So what is the difference between my example and yours? In mine, people go through the minimal effort of exchanging goods and picking them up out of their vendors. In yours, people go through the minimal effort of exchanging goods and retrieving them from wherever they were stored before everyone stopped working. The amount of labor is held constant, only the scarcity of goods varies -- and that's what causes fluctuations in the value of money in your example.

I won't quote the rest, but will say that I wasn't trying to make a linear connection between labor in hours and market price, in any mathematical sense. But I will say, in the absense of any effort money becomes worthless. What money does in our economy is to motivate effort/action from others, whether that effort is to deliver goods or services. I think that the concept of a direct exchange of money for goods itself is an abstraction. Every exchange requires some form of real-world action.

I think the direction of your argument leads to the conclusion that we wouldn't have money if there were no labor, because labor is necessary to create an economy. This is totally true, and I'm not arguing otherwise. However, that isn't the same thing as saying that money has value because of labor. Money exists because of labor, but it has value because it can be exchanged for goods and services.

There are exchanges in our modern economy which do not motivate anyone to do anything, and require no time or labor to execute, but are still worthwhile exchanges. I can go onto iTunes and purchase an album. Computers facilitate the exchange of money and the download of music. People have already made the computers and software involved. Even the artist whose music I am purchasing may be dead. The marginal impact of my purchase on the decisions made by iTunes and record company executives is zero. I've motivated nothing, commanded no labor. In fact, every other human being on the entire planet could drop dead this instant, and I could still make a purchase on iTunes, and the same result would occur. This exchange does not require any form of real-world action other than electrons moving about and light firing through fibre-optic cables. It is entirely labor and time-free, except my own fingers moving across the mouse and keyboard -- and I'm certainly not paying for my own time and effort.

It's not that hard to find paradoxes that come up when you say value in anything (including money) comes from human labor, either by holding labor constant and seeing that value varies widely, or by removing labor entirely. Human labor is common to most things we can spend money on, but it's not the source of value in money -- the source of value is the amount of utility in the goods and services that can be purchased. Since we make money to serve as a medium of exchange in a human economy, that probably involves commanding some labor, but that is not a necessary condition to money having value.
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