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[ImBocaire]

Eh, they probably mean that all their vests have Kevlar fabric plus whatever rigid armor makes it stab-proof.

[Loud Whispers]

unlike alot of other companies whos vest are constructed from...composite materials...

Just Kevlar. Read on, they agree that bullet proof vests don't protect against knives, engineered knives and broken bottles, so they make theirs out of a tighter weave of Kevlar. Well that was surprisingly simple.

[FrisianDude]

'Composite materials' does not necessarily mean kevlar+ another material. It just means a composite material was used. Something can be made of one single composite material, no?

Composite materials, often shortened to composites or called composition materials, are engineered or naturally occurring materials made from two or more constituent materials with significantly different physical or chemical properties which remain separate and distinct at the macroscopic or microscopic scale within the finished structure.

sayeth yon 'pedia. Which means their vests can still be made mostly out of kevlar but with another material added to make it stab-proof.

[DJ]

Do note that anti-stab vests are commonly called stab-resistant, while anti bullet vests are called bullet-proof. Cloth isn't very good protection against thin objects, but is good at catching blunt bullets. It's why the pointy armour piercing bullets manage to, well, pierce armour. Interestingly, bullet proof vests are also vulnerable to bows and crossbows.

Anyway, this is all neither here not there, since even if thick kevlar cushions offer some protection against stabbing, it say nothing about protective properties of tunics which would be single-layer cloth.

Spartans abandoned breast plates in Peleponesian Wars not because they found better armour (why the hell would anyone bother with metal armour afterwards if they did?). It's because this allowed them more strategic mobility, as soldiers without it could march faster and longer (Greece has a fairly hot climate). Marching and sailing were the two main methods of moving troops, with sailing being preferable due to speed, and Athens had naval superiority. The armour sacrifice wasn't all that big a deal since shields offered plenty of protection in the phalanx formations.

[AWdeV]

Fun fact, the Spartans favoured tunics over breastplates because the tunics afforded more protection and mobility.

Mobility sure, but I'd wager it's also because it's cheaper and they relied on their shields and their mates' shields for protection more than they relied on armour in the first place.

1. The Spartans didn't give a crap about money, they changed their currency to iron coins dipped in vinegar to devalue it greatly.
2. Copper and Bronze vs thick tunic. They don't make bullet proof vests out of metal you know 

1. A nice bit of bullshit but not very relevant. I don't give a crap that they don't give a crap about it, if they wanted to buy copper, tin, bronze or stuff already worked into armour then they'd still need to pay for it. If they mined it themselves it would still cost time and effort. Just because they intentionally made their money shitty doesn't mean no transactions were made or were necessary and it certainly doesn't mean the stuff just magically appears, having cost no time or effort whatsoever. Yeah, they used slaves for that but they weren't conjurers either.

2. Different stuff protects against different stuff. A kevlar vest protects (sort of) against a bullet but a sword would shear through it. Really rather a silly point, because the Spartans still had their huge shields in front. And not to forget that the cliché image of these linen armours often had bronze scales to protect the gut.

[Gukag]

Keeping the derail going :3


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linothorax


"The actual method of constructing a linothorax is unknown as no example has survived from ancient times. The only piece of armor that resembles the linothorax was discovered in a tomb in Vergina, Northern Greece (the ancient Macedonian capital of Aegae). This armor, which was most probably worn for ceremony, was constructed from sheet iron with gold embellishments. It is probably an iron copy of a linothorax.

Since visual evidence is limited to vase paintings and sculptural reliefs, rather than actual surviving models, modern scholars can only guess at its makeup and design. Artistic depictions show armor that has a top piece which covers the shoulders and is tied down on the chest, a main body piece wrapping around the wearer and covering the entire torso, and a row of pteruges or flaps around the bottom which cover the groin and upper thigh. There are a number of vase paintings that show what appear to be metal scales covering the armor (as shown in the picture).

The type of material that went into the construction of the linothorax is still hotly debated by academics and amateurs alike. Some of the more common theories of its construction involve laminated or quilting many layers of linen fabric (linothorax literally means 'linen torso'); the armor probably had between 12 and 20 layers. Some have claimed that it was made of leather, or possibly other materials, or a combination of both, but there is little evidence to either support or refute this. It has been suggested the fabric layers were bonded using animal glue. Although strong, this is water soluble therefore the armour would need protection against rain or sweat if this was indeed used."

[Loud Whispers]

1. A nice bit of bullshit but not very relevant. I don't give a crap that they don't give a crap about it, if they wanted to buy copper, tin, bronze or stuff already worked into armour then they'd still need to pay for it. If they mined it themselves it would still cost time and effort. Just because they intentionally made their money shitty doesn't mean no transactions were made or were necessary and it certainly doesn't mean the stuff just magically appears, having cost no time or effort whatsoever. Yeah, they used slaves for that but they weren't conjurers either.

2. Different stuff protects against different stuff. A kevlar vest protects (sort of) against a bullet but a sword would shear through it. Really rather a silly point, because the Spartans still had their huge shields in front. And not to forget that the cliché image of these linen armours often had bronze scales to protect the gut.

1. Perioikoi. Your argument is Theban. The Spartans were forbidden by law to take any profession other than soldiery. That cost, time and effort was spent by the perioikoi. No transactions were made with territories outside of their control, because the rest of Greece also thought iron was useless. They didn't use Helots for that either.
2. Why is this relevant? My point was the tunic afforded more protection than their breastplate. Your point was "they had shields so it doesn't matter."

?

Also really ffs you are being insulting over what? What really?
>Gets facts wrong
>Insults other people
>I'M RIGHT
>No argument even going on

[AWdeV]

Was I being insulting?

Not to my knowledge, but then again, you've displayed a staggering amount of hypocrisy and fanboyism so why not add delusion to that list?

Now I was being insulting.

It doesn't matter whether or not it was called Slave or Perioikoi, the bloody stuff doesn't appear overnight and if it's harder to make you'll have less of it. Simple as that. Copper from Cyprus, Tin from Britain, see how you outfit an army in bronze when there's pirates all up in your traderoutes.

[Loud Whispers]

Not to my knowledge, but then again, you've displayed a staggering amount of hypocrisy and fanboyism so why not add delusion to that list?

Now I was being insulting.

It doesn't matter whether or not it was called Slave or Perioikoi, the bloody stuff doesn't appear overnight and if it's harder to make you'll have less of it. Simple as that. Copper from Cyprus, Tin from Britain, see how you outfit an army in bronze when there's pirates all up in your traderoutes.

The amount of ego stroking you're displaying is a bit much, even by your standards.
You have no idea what you're arguing about.
You are literally arguing for the sake of fulfilling your own self sense of ill-thought superiority.

Well congratulations! I pronounce this thread officially murdered.

And ignorance isn't even an excuse, when you're bloody typing this on the internet.

You didn't even google what the hell perioikoi were.

Now, go argue against history some more.

Goodbye!

[Sadrice]

Dear nearly everyone in this thread:

Screaming "no you're denying history" at eachother does not advance your argument or make you look cool, no matter how right you are.

Not all of us are historians specializing in these particular esoteric details. If all the historians agree with you (as if all the historians agree on anything), and you've actually read their opinions on the matter, it shouldn't be too difficult to provide a link, or a quote, or anything at all.  I, at least, am not just going to take your word for it.

EDIT:  also, last time a katana argument got particularly out of hand (in an adamantine properties thread), it got locked.  I think this discussion is interesting, if lacking in citations, and would rather that not happen.

[Loud Whispers]

#Books written by James Rensaw, Sally Knights, Paul Buckley e.t.c. were my sources, but it isn't too hard to find something on google that isn't wikipedia

[Eric Blank]

This entire thread deserves a community-wide facepalm and a trip to the atom-smasher.

[FrisianDude]

Not to my knowledge, but then again, you've displayed a staggering amount of hypocrisy and fanboyism so why not add delusion to that list?

Now I was being insulting.

It doesn't matter whether or not it was called Slave or Perioikoi, the bloody stuff doesn't appear overnight and if it's harder to make you'll have less of it. Simple as that. Copper from Cyprus, Tin from Britain, see how you outfit an army in bronze when there's pirates all up in your traderoutes.

The amount of ego stroking you're displaying is a bit much, even by your standards.
You have no idea what you're arguing about.
You are literally arguing for the sake of fulfilling your own self sense of ill-thought superiority.

Well congratulations! I pronounce this thread officially murdered.

And ignorance isn't even an excuse, when you're bloody typing this on the internet.

You didn't even google what the hell perioikoi were.

Now, go argue against history some more.

Goodbye!

He already knew what periokoi were, that wasn't his argument. His argument was that even periokoi can't magically summon the necessities for armour and weaponry.

(And to be frank, it's odd that you condemn him for stroking his ego while you are the one assuming enough gravitas to 'officially declare a thread murdered' because someone dared disagree with you. )

[Loud Whispers]

He already knew what periokoi were,

He called the Perioikoi slaves.

that wasn't his argument. His argument was that even periokoi can't magically summon the necessities for armour and weaponry.

Then it was a pretty terrible argument, considering that they were also the craftsmen who acquired the materials necessary and supplied the Spartiates with armour and weaponry. Again, how is magic applied 

(And to be frank, it's odd that you condemn him for stroking his ego while you are the one assuming enough gravitas to 'officially declare a thread murdered' because someone dared disagree with you. )

The moment someone starts deliberately being offensive to someone over some odd reason, that's when a thread usually ends up getting locked with people banned. That's also why I condemned him.
By the way, do you notice the way how this thread's not dead?
That was not a declaration.
It was a joke.
1/10

Now I was being insulting.

/thread

[dreiche2]

No, you don't come across as calm and reasonable either, sorry.

Also, just to let everyone know, I'll report any further insults or bickering from anyone. And surely we all think Toady has better things to do than step in because people don't know how to have a rational, polite discussion about such important subjects?