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Author Topic: Derailed into Sabers vs katanas vs rapiers  (Read 45512 times)

dogstile

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Re: I love marksdwarves, so much.
« Reply #30 on: April 08, 2012, 07:43:50 am »


English and Welsh longbowmen were amongst the most lethal forces on any medieval battlefield, and they made crossbowmen and regular archers look like children playing with nerf guns.

Lol, no.

Feel free to elaborate, annoys the hell out of me when somebody does that because it seems like they have no real reason.

And damn, it has been a long time since I played, i'm still creating forts on 40d. Dwarves can use bows now? Aren't they too small?
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FrisianDude

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Re: I love marksdwarves, so much.
« Reply #31 on: April 08, 2012, 07:57:22 am »

Okay then. Yes, the English and the Welsh used longbows, but no, they did not make other archers and definitely not crossbowmen look like children playing with nerf guns. The main reason English longbowmen are famous is because there were loads of them and because they trained often it's not surprising some of them were good. However, the longbow is one of the most overhyped weapons at the moment; people often insist it goes through armour, limbs, armour again, and then kill the horse the guy was riding who was shot in the thigh. Definitely off. A rain of arrows would certainly hurt and harm, but most would simply not pierce armour. A trained crossbowman was far more likely to defeat heavy armour than a trained longbowman. Mind you, I shouldn't have said 'lol, no' but it seems an often repeated mistake that longbows somehow dominated. They didn't. Knights dominated. Famous examples include Cressy (or Crécy) and Agincourt, but all too often the longbow-proponent heavily exaggerates the effect of the longbows in those battles. At Agincourt however the French allowed themselves to be funnelled into a charge against defended position. Granted,  that allowed the English longbowmen to kill quite a lot of horses and soldiers, but you have to bear in mind that it was simply not a good field for the French to fight. The approach to the English was muddy, which slowed down troops and the troops behind those were slowed down more, the English were behind stakes, which slowed any horseman incredibly and the slowed horsemen could easily expect a big wallop of a pollaxe. The pollaxe would have defeated more approachers than the longbow would have simply because an arrow usually does not harm someone armoured in plate and mail with padded protection beneath. It might pierce the upper layer but the padding would often stop it. How different with a pollaxe; a smash with those could buckle plates if the smasher was lucky (and the smashee wasn't), it could bruise, break and displace bones, without actually piercing the plate. No doubt some of the French died due to longbow fire, but the longbow was merely a factor there, rather than decisive. An equal amount of crossbowmen in place of the longbowmen might very well have done as much or perhaps more damage, but the crossbow is less romanticised and thus considered the inferior weapon.

Crécy by the way featured overly impetuous knights charging well-chosen (and well-defended) positions up-hill. This also meant the French, who fielded considerable amounts of Italic mercenary crossbowmen hardly could return fire for fear of hitting their own knights. If anything I'd say both those battles were won because the English leaders in those battles worked more tactically than their French counterparts. There is more, much more, to both these fights than 'the winner had longbow, that's why they won. '
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WaffleEggnog

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Re: I love marksdwarves, so much.
« Reply #32 on: April 08, 2012, 08:09:07 am »

I agree with the guy that posted the massive story. The way it worked, put very simply, was crossbows replaced bows then firearms replaced crossbows. Try to imagine being in the middle of a huge battle with stuff going every direction, would you rather have a bow, or crossbow? It was much better at fighting in the field, attacking, and you didint need 100 people together to do damage. If your in a castle with 500 people with bows, Its a different story. Also, I think a dwarf spinning around an owning an FB in the eye with a crossbow and it bleeding to death is more badass then sniping it from five miles away.
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Dragula

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Re: I love marksdwarves, so much.
« Reply #33 on: April 08, 2012, 08:38:43 am »

The pros of every weapon is as follows:
Longbow: Range, mass, and speed of reload.
Crossbow: Speed of bolt, less of an arc, more precision, easy to pick up and use.

Would that be an accurate statement?
« Last Edit: April 08, 2012, 09:03:55 am by Dragula »
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Orky_Boss

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Re: I love marksdwarves, so much.
« Reply #34 on: April 08, 2012, 08:45:32 am »

The pros of every weapon is as follows:
Longbow: Range, mass, and speed of reload.
Crossbow: Speed of bolt, less of an arc, more precision.

Would that be an accurate statement?

Also add ease of use for the crossbow.
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Trif

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Re: I love marksdwarves, so much.
« Reply #35 on: April 08, 2012, 09:08:36 am »

The pros of every weapon is as follows:
Longbow: Range, mass, and speed of reload.
Crossbow: Speed of bolt, less of an arc, more precision.

Would that be an accurate statement?

Also add ease of use for the crossbow.
And as a result, little training required.

I think the edge crossbows had over bows is that they don't fire in an ark, so you get more accuracy, is this correct?

Looking at the devlog I'm wondering if bows will fire in a parabolic ark too after the next update?
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KodKod

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Re: I love marksdwarves, so much.
« Reply #36 on: April 08, 2012, 10:35:19 am »

-snip-

Hmm, let's see... Agincourt is the most famous victory for the longbow in history, studied by huge numbers of actual historians who actually know what they're talking about. You, on the other hand, are some random anonymous nobody on a video game forum, and yet you think you can come along and say "nah, the longbow didn't matter at all."

Bull-fucking-shit. This isn't just some guesswork being done, this isn't what we think might have happened. This is documented, studied history. The effectiveness of the longbow is equally documented and studied. By notable professionals!

That's not to say that not everything you have said is false. Could the longbow penetrate plate armour? No, but we already KNOW that and it doesn't change anything. I tell you what, why don't you write a thesis, get it published by a noteable academic journal, and then you might have credability enough to argue your case.
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Askot Bokbondeler

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Re: I love marksdwarves, so much.
« Reply #37 on: April 08, 2012, 10:44:57 am »

-snip-

Hmm, let's see... Agincourt is the most famous victory for the longbow in history, studied by huge numbers of actual historians who actually know what they're talking about. You, on the other hand, are some random anonymous nobody on a video game forum, and yet you think you can come along and say "nah, the longbow didn't matter at all."

Bull-fucking-shit. This isn't just some guesswork being done, this isn't what we think might have happened. This is documented, studied history. The effectiveness of the longbow is equally documented and studied. By notable professionals!

That's not to say that not everything you have said is false. Could the longbow penetrate plate armour? No, but we already KNOW that and it doesn't change anything. I tell you what, why don't you write a thesis, get it published by a noteable academic journal, and then you might have credability enough to argue your case.

KodKod

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Re: I love marksdwarves, so much.
« Reply #38 on: April 08, 2012, 11:09:34 am »



Spoiler (click to show/hide)

"And then he posted an overused Piccard meme."
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Askot Bokbondeler

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Re: I love marksdwarves, so much.
« Reply #39 on: April 08, 2012, 11:12:25 am »

i also italicized a portion of your quote, though it may not be too obvious.

KodKod

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Re: I love marksdwarves, so much.
« Reply #40 on: April 08, 2012, 11:15:21 am »

If it wasn't clear enough we're all random anonymous nobodies, but not all of us are trying to discredit actual historians without a leg to stand on.
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xar23

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Re: I love marksdwarves, so much.
« Reply #41 on: April 08, 2012, 11:16:02 am »

In the arms race between weapons and armor the longbow was always a specialist weapon.  To say that it made "crossbows look like nerf guns" is frankly untrue.  The Pope attempted to ban the use of the crossbow against other Christians precisely because it was incredibly effective and anyone can use it.  It had the potential to upturn society and make the wealthy man in armor vulnerable to ANYBODY.  The longbow, on the other hand, was 1) primitive-- it didn't make use of mechanical advantage as effectively as re-curve bows did, 2) was something that somebody had to physically sculpt their body over the course of years to use effectively.  As a matter of fact, the longbowman fed into the existing social order because he had to be tall, strong, healthy, well-fed and have as much as 10 years experience.  In other words, he needed a patron, to whom he owed loyalty.

Looking at the outcomes (Agincourt, etc.) and positing the weapon on the winning side to be a super weapon is tautological.  I have read the studies which Kodkod refers to and if anything they say that BOTH the French and British ideas of battle were proved wrong.  The French believed that the heavy cavalry charge and the elan of knights was unstoppable.  It wasn't.  The British of the time (and apparently still today) believed that the longbow, fielded in sufficient numbers, would break any charge before it materialized.  It didn't.  But even that fails to look at the weapon in the broader social context.  If you can only ever have 900 longbowmen, for example, based on what your society can support-- but you could have 5000 crossbowmen in the same society then the army you could field with crossbows is deadlier than the one you could field with longbows.
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KodKod

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Re: I love marksdwarves, so much.
« Reply #42 on: April 08, 2012, 11:18:27 am »

I find it sad that we live in a world in which hyperbole is alien to so many people.
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xar23

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Re: I love marksdwarves, so much.
« Reply #43 on: April 08, 2012, 11:21:00 am »

I find it sad that we live in a world in which hyperbole is alien to so many people.

And the purpose of your hyperbole was to illustrate a point not borne out in fact: that a longbow is deadlier than a crossbow.  Gosh, why would that produce pushback?
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ImBocaire

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Re: I love marksdwarves, so much.
« Reply #44 on: April 08, 2012, 11:21:28 am »

This opens new lines of inquiry.

Such as, would the French knights at Agincourt have done better if they were armed with +iron whip+s and riding voracious cave crawlers?
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