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[Corai]

I despise that enemies and prisoners are always the same, they send sieges, request peace all nonchalantly like they own the place. These are my (probably awful) ideas to improve it.


1.If they lost horribly, and survivors managed to escape. They would not send a siege, but a plea for peace instead. they already do this, but its simple and not very fitting when they want peace due to a tiny alcoholic with a teal sword that cuts through steel, is it not?

2.Prisoners should be more then just zoo-animals. They should be real prisoners. If your at peace, next year the caravan will pay you for the people you captured in +Steel shortswords+ and four +Iron Tables+ for example, or they can send a ambush to rescue them, ignoring dwarves mostly.

3.Joining the fort, would it not be more realistic that if a untrained soldier is captured, he eventually begins to belief dwarves are the superior race? After seeing dozens of his allies slaughtered and dozens of rescue attempts failed, he should be likely to defect to your civilization and begin doing labors. This can be sped up with animal trainers with "Convert Prisoner" to increase it, or have your dwarf horribly mutilated in a escape attempt. This job would be governed by Social Skills.

EDIT-

4.Demands for prisoners, a goblin wouldnt come begging, they would bring a elephant demon and a hole army to avenge them. They would make demands for there return.

5.Slavery, NO, NO SLAVERY.

6.They are likely to go stark-raving mad (or other insanity) if they come in contact with there own race. So a human Broker isnt such a good idea, as he may go insane on your merchants.

"no...Im a dwarf...."

"Your a human"

"NO IM A DWARF"

"Look at how tall you are"

"SKJFDFDKFDSGDFGHJDHKJDSFGDGDSGJDFSJSFDJHDSFH"

[Splint]

Not bad overall. The mention of prisoners joing the fort will probably garner attention of people mentioning the whole cultural crap, slavery, etc that multiracial forts would have the have to be interesting to them, but I'd be glad for the extra hands that, barring there being a prisoner of the opposite gender and both being unmarried, you wouldn't have to worry about thier numbers growing out of control (unless you managed to convert several dozen prisoners that is.) But I do like the general concept. You'd need to rely on thier home caravans to bring them clothes and if you plan on having them fight for you, armor.

[Supersnes]

This wold add a nice bit of depth to both sieges and trade.  Maybe I can have those damn dirty gobbos come and try to beg for their kinsman that await my execution integration chambers. Who I can sell back piecemeal.  Who said proper bartering doesn't cost an arm and a leg?

[Splint]

Who said proper bartering doesn't cost an arm and a leg?

Should that be taken litarally?

[Sus]

A pair of quick notes:

- The whole peace through superior firepower + ransom for prisoners dealio seems kind of prone to abuse. A particularly immoral player could turn their fort into some kind of Dwarven terrorist organization, trapping innocent merchants and selling them back to their civ for profit. (Not that there's anything wrong with that.) Or Swarven North Korea, abducting random visitors and "integrating" them into their culture...

- How many civs would even care what happens to random footsoldier #678, let alone offer valuables as ransom? Certainly not goblins. Diplomats or wealthy merchants, maybe, but why would you trap... Oh, right. DF player.

[Splint]

Maybe assault leader/weapon lords. Random redshirt #4 would be shit out of luck at the bargining table.

[Corai]

A pair of quick notes:

- The whole peace through superior firepower + ransom for prisoners dealio seems kind of prone to abuse. A particularly immoral player could turn their fort into some kind of Dwarven terrorist organization, trapping innocent merchants and selling them back to their civ for profit. (Not that there's anything wrong with that.) Or Swarven North Korea, abducting random visitors and "integrating" them into their culture...

- How many civs would even care what happens to random footsoldier #678, let alone offer valuables as ransom? Certainly not goblins. Diplomats or wealthy merchants, maybe, but why would you trap... Oh, right. DF player.

Thats where rescue-missions come into effect, imagine a small squad of humans with Iron daggers sneaking in, throat-slitting your dogs and sneakfully whisking your prisoners out.

They would basically be commandos.

Or goblins could just send a few ogres, either one.

[NRDL]

This idea sounds cool.  Perhaps, if you managed to capture an enemy general, warlord, or whatever comes during sieges, then they'd pay ( or try to break them out ). 

If you, say capture human or elven diplomats, and you have managed to repel any rescue attempts, perhaps the civ would go above your head and use any political clout to ask your mountainhome to order you to release the prisoners.  Think, when a dwarven liaison comes, they will ask you to surrender the politically important figures. 

Unless of course you do become the mountainhome, in which case, you can engage in diplomacy yourself. 

[Corai]

This idea sounds cool.  Perhaps, if you managed to capture an enemy general, warlord, or whatever comes during sieges, then they'd pay ( or try to break them out ). 

If you, say capture human or elven diplomats, and you have managed to repel any rescue attempts, perhaps the civ would go above your head and use any political clout to ask your mountainhome to order you to release the prisoners.  Think, when a dwarven liaison comes, they will ask you to surrender the politically important figures. 

Unless of course you do become the mountainhome, in which case, you can engage in diplomacy yourself.

I could imagine it now.


"HEY YOU TREE HATING BEARDED FREAK, RELEASE THE DRUID"

"NO WE WONT STOP CUTTING TREES"

"YES YOU WILL OR WELL SIEGE"

"WE ALREADY HAVE YOUR DRUID"

"WELL SEND A AMBUSH THEN"

"WE HAVE DOZENS OF YOUR MEN IN CAGES"

".....GOODBYE"

[Splint]

I think at bearded freak the ambassador would probablt be force-fed a wooden spike. or perforated with wooden bolts, cause you know, killing them with the wood they loved is always funny.

[Starver]

There needs to be more enemy intelligence (in at least two senses of the word) before a lot of this can be properly implemented.

Frexample, the 'rescue mission' mode, trapping soldiers/officials and then the enemy coming in with the primary mission to retrieve them.  That's not going to work well until/unless they can avoid[1] the self-same traps and thus not become insta-prisoners in their own right, for their pains.

But some variation on how the interactions are presented would be nice.  Currently, you've got "Charge!" mode, "Retreat!" mode (when the former has failed) and "Mill about!" mode (when there's no path, whether inwards or outwards, according to what they should be doing).


When I read the title I was immediately thinking of a spontaneous "dropping of weapons" by an individual enemy who finds himself unable to advance or retreat.  Then there might be a removal of said enemy from the attack-lists (or, according to how Init, in-game setting or otherwise is set, change from a Hostile to something more indicative their desired non-combatant status.  Which you can have your forces honour or ignore.

As it is an individual break-level (save, possibly, for it it's a unit leader) the rest of the forces can then react accordingly.  Consider it worth their while to drop their own weapons (mostly if you haven't cut down their unarmed colleague, and made them more likely to keep on fighting, surrender, or (especially in the case of unit leaders) cut down the coward, themselves and thus squash the likelihood of others doing the same.

Submitted (and not subsequently-slaughtered!) enemies could then, indeed, feature as a bargaining chip for peace (except in such race-relations that are intrinsically at war) or goods (not just with their home nation).  Or else you might have an indoctrination task to bring them into your civilisation.  Submitted prisoners should be assigned shackles (or at least the already in-game 'chain', as an inventory item rather than as an assigned-to building, to help keep them passive while no longer surrounded and scared out of action by military), or else they may take the opportunity to revert to 'flee' mode as soon as they (think they) see a chance to do so, prior to full indoctrination or actual caging.  (Dwarves already have the "No slavery" ethics, but I don't see why a form of slavery might not be possible by such captured/not-yet-turned prisoners, in chains.  Hauling jobs (not weapons?) only, perhaps.  Or perhaps pump-working/workshop work with the inventoried chain literally tying them to the building concerned.

Or so my own thoughts were, upon reading the thread's subject.

Since my own initial thoughts, though, I've also considered extending this with a 'break' level for even chain-equipped prisoners (which I'm envisaging as being "held in both hands" in inventory, or hand and foot) so that if mistreated beyond a certain level has a chance to revert to hostile, "go Sparticus" and, now, handily have a chain in their hand(s) that they can employ as a primitive weapon against unwary guards.


[1] Not TRAPAVOID, but maybe something TRAPLEARN or TRAPNOTICE

[Supersnes]

Who said proper bartering doesn't cost an arm and a leg?

Should that be taken litarally?

Take it however you wan it to be taken  .

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

There needs to be more enemy intelligence (in at least two senses of the word) before a lot of this can be properly implemented.

Frexample, the 'rescue mission' mode, trapping soldiers/officials and then the enemy coming in with the primary mission to retrieve them.  That's not going to work well until/unless they can avoid[1] the self-same traps and thus not become insta-prisoners in their own right, for their pains.

But some variation on how the interactions are presented would be nice.  Currently, you've got "Charge!" mode, "Retreat!" mode (when the former has failed) and "Mill about!" mode (when there's no path, whether inwards or outwards, according to what they should be doing).


When I read the title I was immediately thinking of a spontaneous "dropping of weapons" by an individual enemy who finds himself unable to advance or retreat.  Then there might be a removal of said enemy from the attack-lists (or, according to how Init, in-game setting or otherwise is set, change from a Hostile to something more indicative their desired non-combatant status.  Which you can have your forces honour or ignore.

As it is an individual break-level (save, possibly, for it it's a unit leader) the rest of the forces can then react accordingly.  Consider it worth their while to drop their own weapons (mostly if you haven't cut down their unarmed colleague, and made them more likely to keep on fighting, surrender, or (especially in the case of unit leaders) cut down the coward, themselves and thus squash the likelihood of others doing the same.

Submitted (and not subsequently-slaughtered!) enemies could then, indeed, feature as a bargaining chip for peace (except in such race-relations that are intrinsically at war) or goods (not just with their home nation).  Or else you might have an indoctrination task to bring them into your civilisation.  Submitted prisoners should be assigned shackles (or at least the already in-game 'chain', as an inventory item rather than as an assigned-to building, to help keep them passive while no longer surrounded and scared out of action by military), or else they may take the opportunity to revert to 'flee' mode as soon as they (think they) see a chance to do so, prior to full indoctrination or actual caging.  (Dwarves already have the "No slavery" ethics, but I don't see why a form of slavery might not be possible by such captured/not-yet-turned prisoners, in chains.  Hauling jobs (not weapons?) only, perhaps.  Or perhaps pump-working/workshop work with the inventoried chain literally tying them to the building concerned.

Or so my own thoughts were, upon reading the thread's subject.

Since my own initial thoughts, though, I've also considered extending this with a 'break' level for even chain-equipped prisoners (which I'm envisaging as being "held in both hands" in inventory, or hand and foot) so that if mistreated beyond a certain level has a chance to revert to hostile, "go Sparticus" and, now, handily have a chain in their hand(s) that they can employ as a primitive weapon against unwary guards.


[1] Not TRAPAVOID, but maybe something TRAPLEARN or TRAPNOTICE

This would be very interesting in that survivors that escape can educate their compatriots about your defenses.  Over time they may even be able to make it deeper and deeper into your fortress defenses.  This can continue until they achieve their objectives--rescue, assassination, siege, etc.  and/or fall victim to your new additions to security.  I hear Dwarves are experimenting with atomic colliders......

[NW_Kohaku]

Toady has said he wants to include a system of goblins remembering which tiles the most goblins died on, and avoiding those tiles if at all possible, along with the tunneling and ladder building mechanics.  That's all a part of the "Improved Sieges" stuff that's waaaaaaaaaaay down at the bottom of the ESV stuff on the devpages. 

(Of course, Toady has finally started on some of the ESV stuff, so maybe it'll be sooner than 5 years until Toady gets to those particular problems.)


I should also say, however, that goblin ethics involve every single thing being "Personal Matter" - as in, "If you don't do it to me, I don't care".  Capture and torture their fellow goblins?  So what, if they were weak, and you are strong enough to get away with it, it's their problem, not ours.

Elves, of course, would be a different story.  Capture one of their diplomats or druids or something, and I'm sure they'd try everything they could to get them back.  Humans might be of the more pragmatic sort.

[Corai]

There needs to be more enemy intelligence (in at least two senses of the word) before a lot of this can be properly implemented.

Frexample, the 'rescue mission' mode, trapping soldiers/officials and then the enemy coming in with the primary mission to retrieve them.  That's not going to work well until/unless they can avoid[1] the self-same traps and thus not become insta-prisoners in their own right, for their pains.

But some variation on how the interactions are presented would be nice.  Currently, you've got "Charge!" mode, "Retreat!" mode (when the former has failed) and "Mill about!" mode (when there's no path, whether inwards or outwards, according to what they should be doing).


When I read the title I was immediately thinking of a spontaneous "dropping of weapons" by an individual enemy who finds himself unable to advance or retreat.  Then there might be a removal of said enemy from the attack-lists (or, according to how Init, in-game setting or otherwise is set, change from a Hostile to something more indicative their desired non-combatant status.  Which you can have your forces honour or ignore.

As it is an individual break-level (save, possibly, for it it's a unit leader) the rest of the forces can then react accordingly.  Consider it worth their while to drop their own weapons (mostly if you haven't cut down their unarmed colleague, and made them more likely to keep on fighting, surrender, or (especially in the case of unit leaders) cut down the coward, themselves and thus squash the likelihood of others doing the same.

Submitted (and not subsequently-slaughtered!) enemies could then, indeed, feature as a bargaining chip for peace (except in such race-relations that are intrinsically at war) or goods (not just with their home nation).  Or else you might have an indoctrination task to bring them into your civilisation.  Submitted prisoners should be assigned shackles (or at least the already in-game 'chain', as an inventory item rather than as an assigned-to building, to help keep them passive while no longer surrounded and scared out of action by military), or else they may take the opportunity to revert to 'flee' mode as soon as they (think they) see a chance to do so, prior to full indoctrination or actual caging.  (Dwarves already have the "No slavery" ethics, but I don't see why a form of slavery might not be possible by such captured/not-yet-turned prisoners, in chains.  Hauling jobs (not weapons?) only, perhaps.  Or perhaps pump-working/workshop work with the inventoried chain literally tying them to the building concerned.

Or so my own thoughts were, upon reading the thread's subject.

Since my own initial thoughts, though, I've also considered extending this with a 'break' level for even chain-equipped prisoners (which I'm envisaging as being "held in both hands" in inventory, or hand and foot) so that if mistreated beyond a certain level has a chance to revert to hostile, "go Sparticus" and, now, handily have a chain in their hand(s) that they can employ as a primitive weapon against unwary guards.


[1] Not TRAPAVOID, but maybe something TRAPLEARN or TRAPNOTICE

Thanks for fleshing the idea out, Obviously I didn't explain it well enough. And again, this isnt slavery, its the same deal that the semi-sapient thread is going at. You think were great, we protect you. They would basically be above-ground dwarves.

[Splint]

Isn't above ground dwarves what humans practically are, just minus madness generating metal and steel?