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NEW: What other Doctor Who monsters would you want in your game?

Vashta Narada
Silurians
Sontarans
Malfunctioning Nanogenes
Ood
Macra (classic Who)
Zygons
Other (please comment!)

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Author Topic: !!DALEKS!! and Introducing: Cybermen!  (Read 77684 times)

Talvieno

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Re: !!DALEKS!! and Introducing: Cybermen!
« Reply #75 on: May 01, 2012, 09:01:05 pm »

Yay! Seems like the only thing they are vulnerable too is dwarven duct tape!

BTW, anyone managed to try candy weapons on them yet?
Me, didn't go so well. :\ Then again, my army wasn't fully trained and the weapons weren't of as high of quality as I would've liked. And they weren't in full candy armor, either. Hastily assembled, you know.

Also:
No, I've already made SCP-173.
-snip of epicness-
Very, very cool.
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Starver

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Re: !!DALEKS!! now with Stonesense sprites
« Reply #76 on: May 01, 2012, 09:42:45 pm »

Cybermen are like robots that try to turn you into one of them. (Yes, this is an oversimplification. How did you guess?) They capture you, take you to their factory, and encase you in a metal suit after sucking out your emotions. Then they try to make more.

Really posting to watch, but tagging on something insofar as the perceived philisophies of Daleks vs Cybermen.  Albeit originally concocted back in 'classic Who' times, it still seems to serve fairly well under the New Who whoniverse:

Taking on a (simplified) WW2-slant on their respective cultures, Daleks are German, Cybermen are Russian.

Daleks invest in "superweapons", e.g. very good tanks/planes, costly to produce, resource-hungry (Dalekanium is not an easy material to get in the Whoniverse), all the pilots/drivers/commanders are intended to be the best genetic examples available.  If there are a lot of them, worry, but even a few are a problem.  They have complex tactics, and they wish to destroy lesser beings (when they aren't open to exploiting them to provide a workforce; until they're finished with them, of course...), but they especially dislike corrupted versions of themselves.  This restricts them (usually!) to being few in number but being deadly with it...

Meanwhile, Cybermen have decent weapons and armour, certainly not harmless and of course can overwhelm 'primitive' forces, but their main tactic is weight-of-numbers.  They care much less about 'purity' (beyond initial rejections of those that are not considered compatible) and instead effectively indoctrinate their conscripts into being the unwavering soldiers that they are.  Whether you think of them as T34s against Tigers or just the general Russian conscript charging the German machine-guns with bayonets, if they can send enough blindly up against the fewer quantities of the enemy they can inflict enough attrition to no longer make it a foregone conclusion that Daleks will win any encounter.  And never mind the losses, because they've got a few million more waiting to arrive.

Of course, New Who, and especially the encounter linked to around the point I started this reply, did rather use the writer's prerogative to make it not so simple an interaction. ;)


Sontarans, meanwhile might be surrogates for one or other orientally-aligned force (if WW2, Japanese; or, if more up-to-date perhaps North Vietnamese instead), but we were never happy with that equivalence...


(Next week, I'll be explaining why Klingons are Russian, Vulcans are Japanese, Romulans are Chinese.  At least in TOS when "things were a whole lot simpler". ;) )
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WillowLuman

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Re: !!DALEKS!! and Introducing: Cybermen!
« Reply #77 on: May 02, 2012, 12:27:49 am »

The main theme of the mod is that the Doctor Who creatures are mostly stranded and scattered bands fallen through time and space into this backwards low fantasy dimension. So, Daleks are like the survivors of a crashed and destroyed saucer, while some clever person may find the remains of a conversion unit or database with instructions on how to make cybermen. Still thinking of the other monsters.

As far as I am concerned, Sontarans are what happens when dwarves achieve interstellar travel.
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Jeoshua

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Re: !!DALEKS!! and Introducing: Cybermen!
« Reply #78 on: May 02, 2012, 07:05:49 am »

Quote
As far as I am concerned, Sontarans are what happens when dwarves achieve interstellar travel.
... beat me to it...

I would like to see them next, since as has been pointed out suscinctly above, they would be very much within the setting, as far as ethics are concerned.  Just make them EXTREMELY upstanding and they WILL go to war with just about everyone.
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WillowLuman

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Re: !!DALEKS!! and Introducing: Cybermen!
« Reply #79 on: May 02, 2012, 06:48:33 pm »

Or give them [UTTERANCES]
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D_Malachi

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Re: !!DALEKS!! now with Stonesense sprites
« Reply #80 on: May 03, 2012, 03:22:31 pm »

(Snip)

...Wow. I had honestly never viewed them as thinly-veiled Axis analogies before, but that makes their personalities and motivations so much more contextual. Assuming this was the basis for their personalities originally, or if it's just utter coincidence that they line up so seamlessly, it's a perfect fit.

On a different note, Sontarans would be a perfect fit for the game- "space dwarves" and all- and could be easy to do. If removing the BABY and CHILD tags causes creatures to be full size at birth (I know, I know, they're clones. Working with what's available), it would be a simple matter to set the variance on the appearance values to be nonexistent, thus giving every member of the race the near-exact appearance, size, and personality.

Edit to add: Also, I like the Dalek language. "Doctor" being their word for Devil and "Davros" their word for God made the historical logs entertaining to read.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2012, 03:30:11 pm by D_Malachi »
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Putnam

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Re: !!DALEKS!! now with Stonesense sprites
« Reply #81 on: May 03, 2012, 04:33:22 pm »

(Snip)

...Wow. I had honestly never viewed them as thinly-veiled Axis analogies before, but that makes their personalities and motivations so much more contextual. Assuming this was the basis for their personalities originally, or if it's just utter coincidence that they line up so seamlessly, it's a perfect fit.

On a different note, Sontarans would be a perfect fit for the game- "space dwarves" and all- and could be easy to do. If removing the BABY and CHILD tags causes creatures to be full size at birth (I know, I know, they're clones. Working with what's available), it would be a simple matter to set the variance on the appearance values to be nonexistent, thus giving every member of the race the near-exact appearance, size, and personality.

Edit to add: Also, I like the Dalek language. "Doctor" being their word for Devil and "Davros" their word for God made the historical logs entertaining to read.

It's not the BABY and CHILD tags that decide size, it's the BODY_SIZE tag. The BABY tag ONLY decides when creatures can walk and socialize and the CHILD tag ONLY decides when creatures can work and have kids. That's pretty much all they do, barring CHILD_NAME and BABY_NAME..

BODY_SIZE:0:0:60000 should work just fine for Sontaran size.

Also, fact: Sontarans are short specifically so that they can play in McDonald's play places.

Starver

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Re: !!DALEKS!! now with Stonesense sprites
« Reply #82 on: May 03, 2012, 04:36:44 pm »

(Snip)

...Wow. I had honestly never viewed them as thinly-veiled Axis analogies before, but that makes their personalities and motivations so much more contextual. Assuming this was the basis for their personalities originally, or if it's just utter coincidence that they line up so seamlessly, it's a perfect fit.
Close enough, I'll grant you.

Bear in mind that Doctor Who started in 1963, with Daleks appearing in the second storyline and Cybermen about three years later, IIRC.  The key writers involved would have grown up through WW2, giving loads of scope for taking inspiration from "the Nazi menace" of the time, so I think "Nazi Daleks" could be a given.

OTOH, it's a bit harder to work out whether writing sympathies (creatives at the BBC often being assumed to have left-leaning ideologies, at least by the more vocal right-wing detractors!) might have let them present the "old ally" of Russia, which had now been best part of two decades in a Cold War stalemate with the 'West', as something not at all desirable.... Crushing of personality, suppressing of free-thought, indoctrinating and converting the Warsaw Pact populations towards communistic lines.  Of course, they could have been socialist without being Stalinist, and I do think it's not a total coincidence that these manipulative processes can apply both to "Good Communists, true to the State" and the cyberconverted.


(Um, I'm deliberately leaving any spoilering in the following as vague and non-specific.  Should any of the following apply to Doctor Who fiction that you are yet to experience, there may be some small bits of information that will at that future time pop into your head, although I doubt it'll be coherently so, so you might want to consider not reading further if you're sensitive about such things and have some form of eidetic memory...  (Plus there's an "it's what starts the movie!" plot-point about Star Trek VI, in a footnote!))

New Who has a few points against this being a continued analogy (but, then again by now Russians are generally 'the good guys', or at least not so utterly isolated behind nigh-on-impregnible walls of ideology[1], and perhaps someone else is being "bad old Russian" in a similar way) including the fact that "Pete's World" cybermen were created by probably the biggest and baddest raging capitalist of that particular parish.  And can the latest incarnations of the Dalek be equivalenced to any current contemporary threat?  There's perhaps something to be said that Dalek Sec and his fellow Cult Of Skaro crew are acting the part of a terrorist cell (but then who does the massed Dalek menace of later timelock-loophole-induced conflicts represent?), but I'm more inclined to put the Weeping Angles into this role ("most dangerous when you can't see them")...  Which is not to say that there can't be a whole load of different terrorists (and there are other candidates, or individuals, with their own atrocities in mind).

Oh, and what sort of creature in our non-Whoniverse world is The Master an equivalent?  And can we even reconcile the Time Lords of old (perhaps being a "Western Power" of some kind, but one largely reluctant to interfere with more primitively developed/'ideologied' peoples) with the "We're the power, and we're the one's who will decide if the Universe has a future!" of the Timothy Dalton interference?  And can the Ood be said to be a "nation", or perhaps more a form of mentality that exists across national boundaries?


[1] And just check Star Trek, as per my previous off-hand comment.  With TOS being made during the height of the Cold War and with a fully 'Nortamericano' perspective being taken on this 'Wagon Train in Space' program, Klingon/Soviet encounters were Cold-War-like (even unto the 'submarine/submarine-hunting games' they played), the Japanese/Vulcans the source of interesting technologies and logical thinking, the Chinese/Romulans being yet another secretive and 'un-American' group of people looked similar to the J/Vs, even, but kept themselves isolated.  But through the later films and certainly by the time of TNG a Klingon version of Glastnost had occurred (hmmm... also Chernobyl might have also inspired ST6's explosion of the moon Praxis that came to the screen no more than a handful of years later) whereupon friendships between the nations were wrought anew (even while the Romulans remained aloof, although even they've caved in a bit, recently, in the relative Trek time-line).  But I'll leave it up to others to work out how TNG/DS9/Voyager counterpart enemies such as The Borg (Cybermen themselves in many ways), the various monomaniac influences from the Q Continuuum, Ferengi, Cardassians, Odo's people and Species 8472, amongst others, fit into the respectively contemporary Earth politics.  (Although, if you ask certain people you might get an argument that the Bajorans are Jewish, recently reclaimed their Israel from the Arabic Cardassians...  But it could as easily be a reversed metaphor of the Palestinians having got to the stage of getting their homeland back, contemporaneous with one of our possible futures!  But that's a quicksand-infested discussion area, beware!)
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WillowLuman

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Re: !!DALEKS!! and Introducing: Cybermen!
« Reply #83 on: May 03, 2012, 06:48:39 pm »

Very interesting, indeed! However, I think that many of the most recent monsters are not so much based on political or military threats, but more on primal or basic fears.
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Starver

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Re: !!DALEKS!! and Introducing: Cybermen!
« Reply #84 on: May 03, 2012, 09:50:39 pm »

Yes I'd pretty much agree on that.  Whether it be a fear of making the wrong decision (Turn Left) or various examples of "Technology gone wrong" (or taken down the wrong route by ill-intended foes) in the case of everything from the Adipose to Atmos...  Fear of shadows (in The Library), or of imminent fiery death (Pompeii), or of cold death (several examples), even if you discount that plain old thanatophobia almost every week.  The fear of losing ones mind... or will... or emotions.. pops up a number of times in contexts other than with the cybermen, and losing memories (in at least one case along with a loved one, and several other cases where personal loss/disconnection without memory-loss is even more painful).  And in one case of losing ones whole self as a hidden personality reasserts.  Oh, and the related issue of not wanting to regenerate as someone new thing happens at least three times (perhaps four?) to The Doctor, and an additional time with another major figure (who is arguably a bit more stubborn about it, and doesn't rely on 'props' to occasionally mitigate it.)

Now, not all of these are directly "a feature of a monster", but they're caused by the MotW (or the recurring-theme monster, that are either season-wide or series-wide).  More basically, there's MotW that incite arachnaphobia and various other losses of personal control.

The "Planet Midnight" episode is probably one of key psychological episodes (and what do we see..?), although the "injured pirates" may lack the same tension and atmosphere, but is also a thriller of psychological (and pysiological) threats.

So, indeed, while one may look at the new series and try to match Cybermen, Daleks, Autons, Sontarans, Time Lords (benevolent, passive, self-serving, control-seeking or on an active and intentional trajectory to universal destruction), and indeed the ordinary men and women of contemporary Earth, historical Earth or various future new-Earths or... from the end of time... with a nod to some of the thematic devices of old... yes, the series has matured somewhat the occasional bald translation.

But even old Who could do its thing.  The Stones Of Blood.  No, not really a Weeping Angels of old, but heart-palpitatingly similar in many ways, I would maintain.  I can think of at least three other (old Who) stories with vampire-analogues (or actualities?) in them, which performed one degree or other of competence in being vampiric (and could in turn succumb to anything from space-ship-sized 'stakes through the heart' to a massive personal belief in the sign of the Hammer And Sickle, thus showing themselves to be good little vampiric foes).  And vampires have popped up quite literally in one watery location, in New Who, while (interestingly?) a water-based variant of the vampire myth crops up in one particularly dry locale...


But there were other monsters in Old Who with a good dose of Shock in them (sometimes more visually convincing, often less so; but par for the course, of course...), and I think New Who is exploring that, plus their...  well, humanity?  Especially when it comes to "goop-born" replicas of real humans, and especially insofar as something that's potentially a very heavy spoiler to a major part of the Matt Smith series arcs...  (Also, within which, I may already have alluded to some of the events, but very abstractedly, and dare not go any further, just in case.  I'm already being self-censoring about arcs from David Tennant time, and am saved from commenting too much about his predecessor's single season because apart from a few key occurrences (the episode called 'Dalek', as a prime example) I'm not sure I can remember enough about it!

But,... as I am often wont to say... I'm waffling.  And missed a closing parenthesis, somewhere. :)
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WillowLuman

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Re: !!DALEKS!! and Introducing: Cybermen!
« Reply #85 on: May 04, 2012, 12:31:07 am »

That reminds me. Should cybermen be weak to gold? If so, should it be a material force multiplier (gold hits them harder) or give gold a syndrome that renders their respirators non-functional?
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D_Malachi

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Re: !!DALEKS!! now with Stonesense sprites
« Reply #86 on: May 04, 2012, 07:27:15 am »

(Snip)

...Wow. I had honestly never viewed them as thinly-veiled Axis analogies before, but that makes their personalities and motivations so much more contextual. Assuming this was the basis for their personalities originally, or if it's just utter coincidence that they line up so seamlessly, it's a perfect fit.

On a different note, Sontarans would be a perfect fit for the game- "space dwarves" and all- and could be easy to do. If removing the BABY and CHILD tags causes creatures to be full size at birth (I know, I know, they're clones. Working with what's available), it would be a simple matter to set the variance on the appearance values to be nonexistent, thus giving every member of the race the near-exact appearance, size, and personality.

Edit to add: Also, I like the Dalek language. "Doctor" being their word for Devil and "Davros" their word for God made the historical logs entertaining to read.

It's not the BABY and CHILD tags that decide size, it's the BODY_SIZE tag. The BABY tag ONLY decides when creatures can walk and socialize and the CHILD tag ONLY decides when creatures can work and have kids. That's pretty much all they do, barring CHILD_NAME and BABY_NAME..

BODY_SIZE:0:0:60000 should work just fine for Sontaran size.

Also, fact: Sontarans are short specifically so that they can play in McDonald's play places.
Sorry, that's not what I meant- I was going for "born as adults, without having to go through the BABY or CHILD stages, and are ready for war almost immediately" as opposed to "born full-size." I was under the assumption that removing the BABY and CHILD tags would remove those stages from them completely, though my modding experience is extremely weak.
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IndigoFenix

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Re: !!DALEKS!! and Introducing: Cybermen!
« Reply #87 on: May 04, 2012, 10:35:09 am »

Removing the [CHILD] tag makes creatures unable to reproduce.  I haven't tested [CHILD:0] though, maybe give that a spin?

bukitodinos

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Re: !!DALEKS!! and Introducing: Cybermen!
« Reply #88 on: May 04, 2012, 03:12:02 pm »

That reminds me. Should cybermen be weak to gold? If so, should it be a material force multiplier (gold hits them harder) or give gold a syndrome that renders their respirators non-functional?

THAT ONE!
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Re: !!DALEKS!! and Introducing: Cybermen!
« Reply #89 on: May 04, 2012, 03:54:17 pm »

Removing the [CHILD] tag makes creatures unable to reproduce.  I haven't tested [CHILD:0] though, maybe give that a spin?

Based on previous versions, removing the CHILD tag makes creatures be born as adults in world gen but unable to reproduce at all during Fortress Mode.
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Mods I've done:
Zelda mod-mod, Beta in the Wild DF 47.04
Illithid Empire mod DF 31.25 (update canceled)
Spotter's Guide to Illithids (Genesis mod-mod) genesis 3.19a4 (update canceled)
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