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[runlvlzero]

[SUBREGION_MAX:5000]

This is the max in the program, if you edit it from within DF.
Also if you edit it from within perfect world it locks to this maximum.

Yet, you can happily edit your own value into the millions and it does not reject worlds with lots of patchwork.

I think it would be "nice" (tm) if it were updated in both places to reflect its true possible maximums.

Also... the wiki is horribly wrong (emphasis mine)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/v0.31:Advanced_world_generation

Maximum Number of Subregions

This is the number of separate biomes (the flashing regions you see on embark when you hit F1, F2, etc when there's more than one biome on the embark location) that are allowed to exist on the entire map.

Setting this to very low values will result in numerous rejections depending on variance parameters. If variance values are set to high numbers, many small biomes will be created causing rejection if this parameter value is not increased beyond the default.

Increasing the value of this tag is often a must when generating "patchwork" worlds with lots of biome variance, but simply increasing it without increasing variance parameters will not guarantee more biomes.
Token    Example    Notes
[SUBREGION_MAX:<number>]    [SUBREGION_MAX:2750]    Range: 1 to 5000

This has nothing to do with the "local map" at all....

Needless to say... It makes me rage like a bloody goblin on steroids trapped with a forgotten beast that its allll WRONG.....

[GavJ]

You can... you know, change the wiki...

[Loud Whispers]

Where is the science?

[GhostDwemer]

The wiki is right, but perhaps poorly worded. It does not claim that subregions are only on the local map, it just says you can see them there. Are you saying those flashing F1, F2 regions are NOT biomes? What are they, then?

You can put whatever value you want there, but 5000 is still the hard limit to regions. I have set it higher and generated worlds with more than 5,000 regions and they are rejected.

[runlvlzero]

You can... you know, change the wiki...

I'm horribly lazy, I don't even know if the wiki takes anonymous edits (i think it should), or at least in the discussion field.

Where is the science?

http://www.scribd.com/doc/87386351/Untitled

The wiki is right, but perhaps poorly worded. It does not claim that subregions are only on the local map, it just says you can see them there. Are you saying those flashing F1, F2 regions are NOT biomes? What are they, then?

You can put whatever value you want there, but 5000 is still the hard limit to regions. I have set it higher and generated worlds with more than 5,000 regions and they are rejected.

The above "document" gen has more then 5k sub regions and did not get rejected O.o I also surfed for a few people genning patchwork worlds who said to set the max to something like 5 million to make it work, especially on medium-large which will generate over 40k if you set the variances high.

As far as the wiki goes it reads like it restricts the number of regions visible in a 16x16 local embark, not the actual number of biomes on the whole map (the extra explanation of "what biomes are" is very redundant and confusing, threw me through a loop the first 8x I read it. They should just have the blue hyperlink to the boimes page from the doc, rather then the extra sentence of confusion).

But that is part of my rage at the Internets, because wiki's tend to be managed more by personal opionion then technical accuracy... (not saying they aren't useful, because gods knows I couldn't play this game without the wiki's help lol)

Also, I haz picturez

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

This is actually in game screenshot of over 2million in the setting. My guess is it wraps around values over 5k to some random integer based on how big the byte code for the setting is, so setting it tooo high could wrap it to something lower then 5k.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[GhostDwemer]

Yes, but how many actual regions are there on that map? There are NOT over 2 million regions because 257x257 is 66,049. If each square were it's own region, you would have 66,049 regions. That map looks to be WELL under 5,000 regions, as some of them are very large.

Edit: That scribd document is a world gen file. It tells us nothing, besides the fact that you can put whatever you like in a world gen file. And setting max regions high doesn't mean you will get that many regions.

[runlvlzero]

Yes, but how many actual regions are there on that map? There are NOT over 2 million regions because 257x257 is 66,049. If each square were it's own region, you would have 66,049 regions. That map looks to be WELL under 5,000 regions, as some of them are very large.

Edit: That scribd document is a world gen file. It tells us nothing, besides the fact that you can put whatever you like in a world gen file. And setting max regions high doesn't mean you will get that many regions.

To reproduce the experiment, gen linked world gen to year 2. Let it finish and save the world without rejections.

Copy the parameters, and set the subregion max to 5000.

Observe map_rejection_log.txt - The Eternal Domain, region3: Too many distinct subregions (over by 2325)

That is my map rejection log for the parameters I posted and the max subregions edited to 5000 =)

It will work, with 5 million.

Summary of experiment results: You can generate worlds with more then 5000 sub regions. For sure 7000+

[Girlinhat]

First of all, congrats on your rage and your hypocrisy.  "Oh hell I hate how the internet is wrong.  But I'm not going to change it."  Second, this is Dwarf Fortress.  Emphasis on Dwarf.  You must have missed the past... every forum post.  Dwarves respect the observed truth above all else.  You may tell a dwarf that gypsum isn't strong enough to stand upright, and the dwarf will promptly build a granite tower atop a single gypsum support.  This is because gypsum is observed to be stronger than we are told.  We trust the truth and don't care about what we're told.

The forum, well, all the forums on Bay 12 are packed with science threads.  If you put a fact forward to us, then we acknowledge the truth.  This is, at basics, what it is to be a dwarf.  We don't meddle with politics and heresay.  We're simple creatures with straightforward thoughts.  You want diplomacy?  We've got axelords.  You want a wiki?  We've got mountains and mountains of facts and people who are fact-checking.

Now, to the thread itself... to what is this relevant?  What exactly does a subregion count do for worldgen that would be desirable or otherwise undesirable that would make us pursue this?

(You'll also note things like temperature can be edited in-file for further extreme numbers.)

[runlvlzero]

Now, to the thread itself... to what is this relevant?  What exactly does a subregion count do for worldgen that would be desirable or otherwise undesirable that would make us pursue this?

Well for example I found its pretty easy to generate worlds with more then 5k subregions, especially when creating boime maps with allot of noise in perfect world. Worlds that can look nice but won't gen with the 5K setting.

I think I scrapped at least 5 such worlds because I couldn't get them to gen without waiting 1 hr for the map rejection dialog to pop up.

Now, through a little experimentation and research, I discovered you can infact make such worlds. 5k is a LIE, a lie hard-coded into the very universe itself...

Why would you make such worlds? Variety comes to mind the most. More chances to get desert next to ice, two or 3 small biomes in one area. There are other threads on that. But it is good to know that 5k is not the hard limit.

Its like being told the world is flat and you can't sail across the ocean, only to find out that in fact you can... and yes there really is life on mars (but that's another subject off topic lol).

As far as hypocrisy goes, I would call it more like sarcastic ranting then hypocrisy, I still believe the internet is infallibly un-tangeable and chaotically amorphous and mysteriously derpy as ever.

[Girlinhat]

More chances to get desert next to ice, two or 3 small biomes in one area.

This is the only part that answered my question.  You keep saying "it's possible" while I ask "why bother?"

[runlvlzero]

To me, it sounds like your asking a question like this: "Why use DFHACK?"

I can't begin to tell you why, there's no reason you must, or no particular reason.

Its possible, and you can do it, and it makes something different then not doing it are all good enough reasons to me.

I specifically wanted to generate a map that had more then 5 thousand regions, because I liked the biome layout on that map vs one that wasn't pre-mapped and would fit in under the 5k cap. In very short short, it was pretty... and shiny...

[Girlinhat]

I know what DFHack does.  I don't know what region count does!

[runlvlzero]

It rejects maps based on the number of different "regions".

A region is a single biome grouped together in one large congruent lump.

Less regions create less difference between area to area on the map biome wise.

More permits many more "lumps" or biomes to be intermixed.

High X Y variances create more regions, lower variances less. I "painted" more regions without tweaking the variance settings then the standard (soft coded) parameters could handle.

[Girlinhat]

So... this would make it easier to, say, get undead unicorns.

[runlvlzero]

Definitely lol. If you had lots of small regions next to each other with very high desired good/evil square counts in small regions.

Behold 90% probability of unholy unicorns if you give it the right embark =) this one was over 12k sub-regions on one run before I put it to 5000000000. (also its just an example if you want to actually use it set mineral scarcity, civ pop counts and site counts, et al, to your liking).

It also takes an extremely long time to populate pre-erosion minerals, lakes and rivers. If I was going to try this for real I would pre-paint another map myself for it with even more sub regions.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[WORLD_GEN]
   [TITLE:UNHOLYUNICORNS]
   [DIM:257:257]
   [EMBARK_POINTS:1274]
   [END_YEAR:500]
   [BEAST_END_YEAR:300:80]
   [REVEAL_ALL_HISTORY:1]
   [CULL_HISTORICAL_FIGURES:0]
   [ELEVATION:1:400:3200:3200]
   [RAINFALL:0:100:3200:3200]
   [TEMPERATURE:25:75:3200:3200]
   [DRAINAGE:0:100:3200:3200]
   [VOLCANISM:0:100:3200:3200]
   [SAVAGERY:0:100:3200:3200]
   [ELEVATION_FREQUENCY:6:1:1:1:1:1]
   [RAIN_FREQUENCY:6:1:1:1:1:1]
   [DRAINAGE_FREQUENCY:6:1:1:1:1:1]
   [TEMPERATURE_FREQUENCY:6:1:1:1:1:1]
   [SAVAGERY_FREQUENCY:6:1:1:1:1:1]
   [VOLCANISM_FREQUENCY:6:1:1:1:1:1]
   [MINERAL_SCARCITY:3200]
   [MEGABEAST_CAP:75]
   [SEMIMEGABEAST_CAP:150]
   [TITAN_NUMBER:33]
   [TITAN_ATTACK_TRIGGER:80:0:100000]
   [DEMON_NUMBER:52]
   [NIGHT_TROLL_NUMBER:26]
   [BOGEYMAN_NUMBER:26]
   [VAMPIRE_NUMBER:26]
   [WEREBEAST_NUMBER:26]
   [SECRET_NUMBER:52]
   [REGIONAL_INTERACTION_NUMBER:52]
   [DISTURBANCE_INTERACTION_NUMBER:52]
   [EVIL_CLOUD_NUMBER:26]
   [EVIL_RAIN_NUMBER:26]
   [GOOD_SQ_COUNTS:33000:0:0]
   [EVIL_SQ_COUNTS:33000:0:0]
   [PEAK_NUMBER_MIN:50]
   [PARTIAL_OCEAN_EDGE_MIN:0]
   [COMPLETE_OCEAN_EDGE_MIN:0]
   [VOLCANO_MIN:15]
   [REGION_COUNTS:SWAMP:0:0:0]
   [REGION_COUNTS:DESERT:0:0:0]
   [REGION_COUNTS:FOREST:0:0:0]
   [REGION_COUNTS:MOUNTAINS:0:0:0]
   [REGION_COUNTS:OCEAN:0:0:0]
   [REGION_COUNTS:GLACIER:0:0:0]
   [REGION_COUNTS:TUNDRA:0:0:0]
   [REGION_COUNTS:GRASSLAND:0:0:0]
   [REGION_COUNTS:HILLS:0:0:0]
   [EROSION_CYCLE_COUNT:250]
   [RIVER_MINS:400:400]
   [PERIODICALLY_ERODE_EXTREMES:1]
   [OROGRAPHIC_PRECIPITATION:1]
   [SUBREGION_MAX:5000000000]
   [CAVERN_LAYER_COUNT:3]
   [CAVERN_LAYER_OPENNESS_MIN:0]
   [CAVERN_LAYER_OPENNESS_MAX:100]
   [CAVERN_LAYER_PASSAGE_DENSITY_MIN:0]
   [CAVERN_LAYER_PASSAGE_DENSITY_MAX:100]
   [CAVERN_LAYER_WATER_MIN:0]
   [CAVERN_LAYER_WATER_MAX:100]
   [HAVE_BOTTOM_LAYER_1:1]
   [HAVE_BOTTOM_LAYER_2:1]
   [LEVELS_ABOVE_GROUND:15]
   [LEVELS_ABOVE_LAYER_1:5]
   [LEVELS_ABOVE_LAYER_2:1]
   [LEVELS_ABOVE_LAYER_3:1]
   [LEVELS_ABOVE_LAYER_4:1]
   [LEVELS_ABOVE_LAYER_5:2]
   [LEVELS_AT_BOTTOM:1]
   [CAVE_MIN_SIZE:5]
   [CAVE_MAX_SIZE:25]
   [MOUNTAIN_CAVE_MIN:100]
   [NON_MOUNTAIN_CAVE_MIN:200]
   [ALL_CAVES_VISIBLE:0]
   [SHOW_EMBARK_TUNNEL:2]
   [TOTAL_CIV_NUMBER:40]
   [TOTAL_CIV_POPULATION:1000]
   [SITE_CAP:1000]
   [PLAYABLE_CIVILIZATION_REQUIRED:1]
   [ELEVATION_RANGES:0:0:0]
   [RAIN_RANGES:0:0:0]
   [DRAINAGE_RANGES:0:0:0]
   [SAVAGERY_RANGES:0:0:0]
   [VOLCANISM_RANGES:0:0:0]