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[Truean]

Unless, of course, you are a locally licensed attorney yourself.

Actually....

"He who represents himself has a fool for a client."

And there are lots of reasons for this.

I am curious about one thing: In one info video on youtube some guy commented that it was very important in order to have the attorney as a witness when talking to the police, so that they don't say that you've said stuff you haven't said. Is the adage related to this stuff?

Yes, partially. There are literally pages of reasons why. I don't even know where to begin. If you represent yourself, then your arguments in court can become testimonial which means you've effectively "taken the stand" and can be cross examined and that opens up all sorts of problems like the prosecution exposing prior convictions etc. Then there's the general thing about how you can't really be objective most of the time. There are tons of reasons for this.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Have you ever seen or heard of someone successfully defending themselves?

[Truean]

Have you ever seen or heard of someone successfully defending themselves?

They spin yarns about it occasionally happening, there's even gossip about the occasional law student knowing something, but I can't give credence to such tales. My experience is attorneys wait in the back of court rooms hoping to snag a court appointed client and take bets on how the ones who try to go it alone will screw up.

I have heard of it; I have never seen it. I have seen people screw up horrendously.

[Leafsnail]

Have you ever seen or heard of someone successfully defending themselves?

I've heard of someone successfully escaping while researching their case in order to defend themselves, but I'm not sure if that counts.

[Darvi]

Have you ever seen or heard of someone successfully defending themselves?

Yes.

Now, if you wanted a Real Life example...

[Alastar]

I was under the (possibly mis-)apprehension that this was something to do with the fact that soldiers could not be forced to reveal what orders and other tactical information that they had been given, in civilised conflict.  And thus no sides in a conflict need ever feel that they needed to fight to the bitter, bitter end.  (Not that this always worked, but it made battles 'honest' when it wasn't something like the Eastern Front where these principles did break down quite severely, ending up as being grudge match upon grudge match upon grudge match, and knowing that no quarter would be given or taken...)

Sorry for the OT, but those principles didn't apply in the first case. Neither Germany nor the Soviet Union had ratified the relevant treaties. I believe there was an offer from the Soviet Union to honour the conventions anyway, but that didn't even get an official response.

[ChairmanPoo]

IIRC didn't the Boston Strangler manage to acquit himself the first time he was brought to tryial?

[Neonivek]

It really depends on what evidence is set against you.

The Representing yourself in a case where you are clearly innocent by the evidence is easy enough.

The issue is procedure.

The best example of this in fiction would be an episode of the Drew Carry Show where he does a HORRIBLY incompetent job at defending himself... but because Courts are about evidence and not performance he is proclaimed innocent. That is around what I'd HOPE it would go.

[JoshuaFH]

Found that non profit I was talking about! Though they changed names or merged programs or whatever since I was helping out a years ago:

And, it looks like they've done an excellent job. We've had text guides on our website similar to this but tailored to Northern Ohio basically forever. This is basically what we tell our clients; we never had videos before though.
http://www.flexyourrights.org/faq/keep_police_from_searching_car

If you're wondering who that dashing Attorney talking to the courtroom full of concerned citizens is, that would be this man: (named founding partner, former judge)
http://billymurphylaw.com/people.php?PeopleID=5

Disclaimer you need to read: 1st, you don't have to buy the DVD; the free Youtube clips are excellent. Second, this is excellent generalized advice; remember what I said about enforcement and rules varying? They do; it matters. If you've been charged with a crime or are under investigation, contact a locally licensed lawyer ASAP. DO NOT THINK TALKING WITH THE POLICE WITHOUT A LAWYER WILL HELP YOU. Do not rely solely on these videos for any defense, they are an excellent preparation to help a lawyer mount a court defense. I don't recommend trying anything on your own. You have the right to remain silent. Use it. You have the right to have an attorney present. Use it. These rights exist for a reason. Use them.

Law is not and never can be a magic formula. It's all about prosecution and defense convincing the judge there was or wasn't probable cause. You can make it easier on yourself and your attorney if you're prepared. You don't know your rights, period. On average, you really don't know your rights if you think you do. Do not provoke the police. You don't "fight" the police; lawyers do. Your job is to be the most model upstanding citizen possible in a police encounter and give the police nothing, NOTHING to use against you while making it easier for your attorney to help you.

Some additional tips:

IF THE POLICE SEARCH YOU ANYHOW WITHOUT CONSENT: stay calm. If they search you anyhow without consent, then your lawyer has a better chance of winning your case in court. Most police searches happen because police trick people into validating the searches by consenting.

Refusing consent is not probable cause in and of itself.

You now have to actually say, "Officer, I am invoking my right to remain silent and want to speak to an attorney," for your right to remain silent to attach. NOT: "Maybe I should speak to a lawyer." NOT: "I don't want to answer your questions." There are a million little things like that, hence why I will say again that you should never do legal things on your own, always consult a locally licensed attorney who can practice law in your jurisdiction.

Edit: Clearly, this only applies to the US.

I watched pretty much all of those ten rules things, I have to say I really liked it. I feel a bit safer knowing the 'right and legal' way to speak to the cops. With all the news I hear about amendment violations, it frequently feels like the bill of rights is just an imaginary thing nowadays, but I like being reassured that it still matters.

[Truean]

It really depends on what evidence is set against you.

The Representing yourself in a case where you are clearly innocent by the evidence is easy enough.

The issue is procedure.

The best example of this in fiction would be an episode of the Drew Carry Show where he does a HORRIBLY incompetent job at defending himself... but because Courts are about evidence and not performance he is proclaimed innocent. That is around what I'd HOPE it would go.

"Clearly innocent?" "Issue is [only] procedure?" There will always be clients who insist upon this; there is no such thing. Fairy tale. The prosecutor isn't ethically allowed to bring a case without a good faith basis and if they have evidence tending to prove the innocence of the accused, they must disclose it to the defense. If he doesn't, and its found out later, or heaven help him the judge gets pissed about it, he gets in severe trouble for it. This is clearly erroneous thinking that there is even such a thing as black and white in the world. Makes for great TV, but doesn't exist in reality.

These clients are the second worst type and they try not to pay because "the case was easy, all you did was the paperwork." Like seriously, they try not to pay me even when I win.... They don't understand their case at all. They refuse to see the prosecution's side of things and so they have no chance of beating what they won't even acknowledge exists. They're trying to fight with their eyes closed and their fingers in their ears.

Found that non profit I was talking about! Though they changed names or merged programs or whatever since I was helping out a years ago:

And, it looks like they've done an excellent job. We've had text guides on our website similar to this but tailored to Northern Ohio basically forever. This is basically what we tell our clients; we never had videos before though.
http://www.flexyourrights.org/faq/keep_police_from_searching_car

If you're wondering who that dashing Attorney talking to the courtroom full of concerned citizens is, that would be this man: (named founding partner, former judge)
http://billymurphylaw.com/people.php?PeopleID=5

Disclaimer you need to read: 1st, you don't have to buy the DVD; the free Youtube clips are excellent. Second, this is excellent generalized advice; remember what I said about enforcement and rules varying? They do; it matters. If you've been charged with a crime or are under investigation, contact a locally licensed lawyer ASAP. DO NOT THINK TALKING WITH THE POLICE WITHOUT A LAWYER WILL HELP YOU. Do not rely solely on these videos for any defense, they are an excellent preparation to help a lawyer mount a court defense. I don't recommend trying anything on your own. You have the right to remain silent. Use it. You have the right to have an attorney present. Use it. These rights exist for a reason. Use them.

Law is not and never can be a magic formula. It's all about prosecution and defense convincing the judge there was or wasn't probable cause. You can make it easier on yourself and your attorney if you're prepared. You don't know your rights, period. On average, you really don't know your rights if you think you do. Do not provoke the police. You don't "fight" the police; lawyers do. Your job is to be the most model upstanding citizen possible in a police encounter and give the police nothing, NOTHING to use against you while making it easier for your attorney to help you.

Some additional tips:

IF THE POLICE SEARCH YOU ANYHOW WITHOUT CONSENT: stay calm. If they search you anyhow without consent, then your lawyer has a better chance of winning your case in court. Most police searches happen because police trick people into validating the searches by consenting.

Refusing consent is not probable cause in and of itself.

You now have to actually say, "Officer, I am invoking my right to remain silent and want to speak to an attorney," for your right to remain silent to attach. NOT: "Maybe I should speak to a lawyer." NOT: "I don't want to answer your questions." There are a million little things like that, hence why I will say again that you should never do legal things on your own, always consult a locally licensed attorney who can practice law in your jurisdiction.

Edit: Clearly, this only applies to the US.

I watched pretty much all of those ten rules things, I have to say I really liked it. I feel a bit safer knowing the 'right and legal' way to speak to the cops. With all the news I hear about amendment violations, it frequently feels like the bill of rights is just an imaginary thing nowadays, but I like being reassured that it still matters.

It helps, but keep in mind, that's the way it's supposed to go. It doesn't always. Like I said, still a very good guide for how to deal with police. Murphy is doing a public service.

[Neonivek]

"Clearly innocent?"  "Issue is [only] procedure?"  There will always be clients who insist upon this; there is no such thing

It was a civil case where you are allowed to do as insane of a case as you want.

[Truean]

"Clearly innocent?"  "Issue is [only] procedure?"  There will always be clients who insist upon this; there is no such thing

It was a civil case where you are allowed to do as insane of a case as you want.

Um....

You can't um.... Not, not really. There are tons of rules in law and I don't get why people don't think law has lots of rules. I just... people come in thinking this and.... headache....

[Scelly9]

It was probably some stupid "Judge Judy" shit

[Willfor]

I think the problem is that he's trying to reconcile The Drew Carey Show with any form of reality. From what I've heard, Cleveland does not, in fact, rock.

[Truean]

I think the problem is that he's trying to reconcile The Drew Carey Show with any form of reality. From what I've heard, Cleveland does not, in fact, rock.

Having lived there, it does not. The rock and Roll Hall of Fame is just a closet you pay to get in. All the induction ceremonies take place in NY.