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[Cthulhu]

Wounds don't heal if you're dead, and you can't take your settlement with you.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Like I said, that's the best thing in the worst case scenario. The worst thing in the worst case scenario is dying, obviously.

[Impending Doom]

Also a good thing to remember: if you get pulled over, keep both hands on the wheel until the officer gets to your car. Don't roll down the window, don't reach for anything until he's right there and can see your hands clearly. If you so much as reach up in the visor for your license, he's liable to shoot you in the back of the head on the off-chance you might be going for a gun.

And you want them to end up brutalizing you while you clearly aren't resisting. That's the best thing that can happen in a worst case scenario with a sociopath cop. Wounds heal in weeks and months. Multi-million dollar damage awards/out of court settlements last for much longer.

Gunshot wounds in the head tend to take a bit longer than a few weeks to heal.

[nenjin]

And you want them to end up brutalizing you while you clearly aren't resisting. That's the best thing that can happen in a worst case scenario with a sociopath cop. Wounds heal in weeks and months. Multi-million dollar damage awards/out of court settlements last for much longer.

That's how people end up dead, dude.

I've been on the backside of the cop car, where there's no camera, face pinned to the trunk with a cop's forearm against the back of my neck while he's whispering in my ear how close I am to going to jail. Who are they gonna believe? A decorated state patrol officer, or some punk like me?

All I asked him was why a state patrol officer had pulled me over in the residentials, and I thought I did it politely. And things got very scary from there. Guess what, he asked to search my vehicle and I refused. And then he pulled me out of the car on probable cause. Where do you think my advice comes from?

I've had more than 15 cops point guns at me, all at once, screaming for me to do everything simultaneously: get down, turn around, put my hands up, approach them, freeze...... I watched their fucking hands trembling and realized if just one guy fired, I was going to die. I've been _ _ that close to getting killed by cops for being a stupid kid doing a completely legal thing. I've watched two twenty-something bike cops stop my 55 year old dad and call him "boy" and threaten to take him to jail for demanding to know why they'd stopped him at a stop light of all freaking places. And they'd have done it, I'm sure. You know what stopped him from going to jail? "Sir"-ing them.

I've had a lifetime of close calls with police officers and I'm only 30. This shit isn't academic to me. Maybe if you're nice and white and wealthy and lucky, things are different. For a vast majority of Americans, police are scary fucking people and it's a crapshoot which one is going to pull you over, the good cops or the psychotic, power-tripping ones.

[Impending Doom]

I am white, somewhat wealthy, and don't believe in luck. Cops still scare the piss outta me.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

That's how people end up dead, dude.

Your suggestions are no worse than mine in the worst case scenario. Your chances of survival against a lunatic cop do not change if you follow your suggestions to allow your rights to be violated or mine to not allow your rights to be violated even if they are anyway. But if you do survive my path looks better in court.

I've been on the backside of the cop car, pinned to the trunk with a cop's forearm against the back of my neck while he's whispering in my ear how close I am to going to jail. Who are they gonna believe? A decorated state patrol officer, or some punk like me?

All I asked him was why a state patrol officer had pulled me over in the residentials, and I thought I did it politely. And things got very scary from there.

And as I explained earlier; you should never ask them things as that constitutes talking to them. That was your mistake.

I've had more than 15 cops point guns at me, all at once. I've been _ _ that close to getting killed by cops.

That sounds like quite the story.

[nenjin]

It is. I like to tell it a lot because it was a formative moment in my life.

And as I explained earlier; you should never ask them things as that constitutes talking to them. That was your mistake.

Hence the shut up part of my advice. If I'd known then what I know now, I would have walked away with some tickets instead of tickets and a lingering sense that I was moments away from getting my skull bashed in.

Your chances of survival against a lunatic cop do not change if you follow your suggestions to allow your rights to be violated or mine to not allow your rights to be violated even if they are anyway. But if you do survive my path looks better in court.

Say that when you've got a gun stuck in your face. It's an enlightening moment about the power of civil rights and personal courage.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Your chances of survival against a lunatic cop do not change if you follow your suggestions to allow your rights to be violated or mine to not allow your rights to be violated even if they are anyway. But if you do survive my path looks better in court.

Say that when you've got a gun stuck in your face. It's an enlightening moment about the power of civil rights and personal courage.

...Is that a rebuttal or...?

If they've gotten to the point that they're pointing guns the questions are probably over, and thus my advice is completed.

It is. I like to tell it a lot because it was a formative moment in my life.

So are you going to tell it? It does sound interesting.

[Neonivek]

One of the reasons you read over a contract a police officer gives you is simply burden of evidence.

One of the reasons some states actually outright required police to record interrogations (others require you to ask for them) is because it was common for police officers to interrogate you harshly for hours.

[nenjin]

What I'm saying is, it's all well and good to go on about how you'll stand up to a cop who is obviously fucking you over on a forum in the comfort of your own home. Reality is different. It's different when you consider actually going to jail to stand up for your rights, and everything that entails (I've been, have you?), and standing up to someone who holds all the cards and then some. Have you ever been truly bent over the by the law? Because I have. More times than I can count. Now I just do what they tell me and figure I'll retain a lawyer later. That doesn't mean I'll sign a false confession or lick their boots. But I like being alive, and the moment of the incident is not the time to start arguing with a police officer about anything. Especially their unreasonable requests. A cop that is willing to make unlawful requests is a cop who is willing to do unlawful things to you and use their authority as a shield for their actions.

So, on topic, as stupid and horrible as it is, this guy erred by not coming to the door immediately. It's not fair that he was in error, at all. But that's the world we live in.

[fqllve]

Protip: When a cop asks you if they can search your car, it's not a request. It's bait. Refusal to allow a vehicle search is probable cause

That's not actually true. Which isn't to say that a savvy cop can't come up with a million reasons for probable cause, but refusing a search isn't one of them. And even if it was you're still better off refusing because if it isn't probable cause and they search your car anyway any evidence they find is inadmissible. And frankly, the laws in this country are way too complex for me to be secure in the knowledge that I haven't broken one. I might know the laws in my town front to back but something legal there might be illegal in the next town over. I always try to abide the law but I also always refuse a search because you really never know.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

What I'm saying is, it's all well and good to go on about how you'll stand up to a cop who is obviously fucking you over on a forum in the comfort of your own home. Reality is different. It's different when you consider actually going to jail to stand up for your rights, and everything that entails (I've been, have you?), and standing up to someone who holds all the cards and then some. Have you ever been truly bent over the by the law? Because I have. More times than I can count. Now I just do what they tell me and figure I'll retain a lawyer later. That doesn't mean I'll sign a false confession or lick their boots. But I like being alive, and the moment of the incident is not the time to start arguing with a police officer about anything. Especially their unreasonable requests. A cop that is willing to make unlawful requests is a cop who is willing to do unlawful things to you and use their authority as a shield for their actions.

You keep adding things into my advice that aren't there. I'm not advocating getting in a shouting match with a cop. It's not about being belligerent towards them; it's about making your intentions clear regardless of your actions or what happens.

To wit:
Cop: "Can I search your car?"
You: "No, I do not consent to a search."
Cop: "(ANYTHING THEY SAY IN RESPONSE)"
You: -stand there calmly in silence-

If they search your car anyway or arrest you, it doesn't matter. You said no. The court is going to hear that. They're going to see the cop ignoring you. And any defense lawyer worth their salt can capitalize on that. I believe our very own Truean actually once mentioned a case in which she got the police's evidence all thrown out of court on similar grounds.

[nenjin]

Maybe the specifics vary state to state, but after doing several semesters of criminal justice and talking to several police officers (both during incidents and not during incidents) I believe you're wrong. Between good faith and a cop with a halfway decent imagination, evidence found will be admissible if the court believes the officers acted in good faith. And the burden to prove otherwise is on you.

And you will only get to that point if you go to trial, retain a lawyer and decide you're going to fight the city/state on those charges. And if you're actually guilty of what they suspected you of? Well, your chances of them finding against good faith aren't great. Despite what people are programmed to believe by watching Law and Order for 20 years straight, winning disputes against police officers is a rarity. And you'd better be committed to going all the way. Which includes jail if necessary.

If they search your car anyway or arrest you, it doesn't matter. You said no. The court is going to hear that. They're going to see the cop ignoring you. And any defense lawyer worth their salt can capitalize on that. I believe our very own Truean actually once mentioned a case in which he got the police's evidence all thrown out of court on similar grounds.

It's not impossible. But as I said above, that's only after you do everything else that comes with it. Very few white people I know get the treatment I and others I know have gotten from cops. If you've never been treated as a suspicious person just for being who you are, you probably have a lot more faith in the system. I don't. But what you're describing is basically belligerently defending your right to go to jail and retain a lawyer. (Yes, silence can be interpreted as a belligerent action by police officers. The court will note you refused to respond to a reasonable request by an officer as well, by refusing to even answer them.) So good luck with that. My way usually involves the cop backing off at some point.

It's the catch-22 of a breathilizer test. You can legally refuse to submit to one. But you'll be going straight to jail. For someone who isn't drunk, it isn't a hard choice to make.

[Frumple]

Protip: When a cop asks you if they can search your car, it's not a request. It's bait. Refusal to allow a vehicle search is probable cause

That's not actually true. [snip]

It... well, it can depend on the state. And where you are in the state. Here in Florida? They can pull you over and search your car, period. Cops literally do not need any justification or cause, at all. Zero. Random vehicle searches have been made legally permissible. They find anything law breaking in the process, it's admissible. Technically, I think that applies to every point in the US where you're within a 100 miles of the border (which, again, technically includes anything within 100 mi of airports, beyond the obvious.). Came up in a thread a while back, actually. 4th amendment violations writ into law and all that.

[nenjin]

The only thing, afaik in my state, that a cop needs a search warrant for on your vehicle is the trunk. Which most cops will be happy to take their whole day off to get if they believe there's something in there that's worth it. And they will detain you for as long as they can while they wait to get it, assuming they haven't already found something they can arrest and arraign you on. At which point I think they probably already have probable cause to breach your trunk without a warrant. So. It's a very nice system for getting people who are guilty of something. For someone completely innocent, there are more outs unless you're dealing with a cop who is willing to invent total bullshit to get you.