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Original amounts (chickens 4-15, crocodiles 20-60)

Something in between.

Modest Mod's current amounts (chickens 2-4, crocodiles 4-8)

Fewer than that.

[Igfig]

Updated to version 2.1. Lots of fun changes.

The extremely long hair issue is hard to fix entirely, since only historical figures respect the hairstyle tags. I could make hair grow much more slowly, but that would only delay the issue for immortal elves and goblins.

[Ari Lazarus]

Aw yiss~ binary fix is the big ticket in this release ^_^

[FluxX]

Ohhh. Compatible with Ironhand? Might give this a go.

[Akjosch]

EDIT: Scratch the first question, I wasn't reading the proper changelog.

For easier merging, the only changed raw files since version 2.0 seem to be those six; is this correct?

Code: [Select]

creature_equipment.txt
creature_standard.txt
entity_default.txt
inorganic_stone_layer.txt
material_template_default.txt
reaction_adventurer_basic.txt


[Igfig]

In the core mod, yeah. I also changed building_pedestal and some of the clothing files in the modules.

[Ari Lazarus]

Righto, tried firing this up for the first time today, also playing with Seasonal Crops (great idea!), Pedestals, and Modest Bodies. Unsure if this is related to MM at all, but I'll run it by you guys first in case you are aware of some oddities..

Basically my dwarves have stopped eating. They stopped considering plants and eggs as food at some point - which is really odd because they were eating earlier. It's come to the point where I dump food in front of them, make a stockpile next to them (which gets food taken to it) and they still refuse to eat it :/

Edit: I has a save.

Unrelated Edit: Igfig, would you consider incorporating the skill tweaks in Seasonal Crops? Because your farmers get around 1/2 to 1/3 the planting and harvesting done, it would make sense to up the skill gains. Unless we're keeping farming skills intentionally slower.

Ninja NINJA Edit: The fine-grained reactions for Querns and I assume Mills don't seem to be working, I still get the default mill plants / seed reactions.

[Igfig]

It looks like the only plants you have left are inedible raw. Ditto eggs. I told one of your farmers to start cooking, and she immediately whipped up some turkey egg biscuits and saved the fortress.

Oh, I forgot to mention: I also changed entity_default.txt in the Pedestals module. It was missing the milling reactions before. You appear to be using an older version of that file.

And yeah, I guess I should increase farming skill gain rates for Seasonal Crops. Looks like RavingManiac updated the mod with said increase immediately after I added it as a module. The one problem is that I'd have to change creature_default.txt to make that work, which would create an incompatibility between Seasonal Crops and Skill Tweaks.

[Ari Lazarus]

Huh. I could've sworn you could eat eggs raw... I guess Seasonal Crops must be doing its job, I'm reduced to raw eggs with nothing else haha.

I'll double check on the entity_default.txt regarding the reactions and get back to ya! Yeah, that is kinda weird. Must've updated sometime between my download and now. Small matter to change anyway.

For the incompatibilities, maybe make a combined one for use with both mods? Just toss it onto your Modest Modules and that should be it. Although, I get that you're trying to make sure everything 'fits' together easily, sometimes it just isn't the case, and raws must be sacrificed.

[Taffer]

Thanks for the excellent work! For what it's worth, I added a link in my thread as a recommendation. Hope you don't mind!

[IronValley]

PTW


Great Mod!

[Meph]

About egg laying creatures: All creatures should lay 1 egg.

Currently you have crocs with 4-8. Get one breeding pair, get ~6 crocs, next year get ~24, next year get ~90 crocs... so much for warbeasts... I just think food is too easy to get in the game, and 1 egg still counts as one meal, so even a small amount of chickens will make food a trivial thing.

[kuki]

So, Igfig, since you asked...

I think some light re-balancing to melee weapons would fit perfectly in this mod, since it already addresses ranged weapons and their power versus armor. I am going to try out the following changes and see how they perform, but people who actually have an inkling how the combat system works/know how to parse data from large scale arena experiment logs using scripts would probably be better suited to figuring out actual numbers...

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[ITEM_WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_AXE_BATTLE]
[NAME:battle axe:battle axes]
[SIZE:800]
[SKILL:AXE]
[TWO_HANDED:47500]
[MINIMUM_SIZE:42500]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:4]
[ATTACK:EDGE:15:2000:hack:hacks:NO_SUB:1250]
[ATTACK:EDGE:40000:6000:slash:slashes:NO_SUB:1250]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:100:1000:strike:strikes:pommel:1000]

[ITEM_WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_HAMMER_WAR]
[NAME:war hammer:war hammers]
[SIZE:400]
[SKILL:HAMMER]
[TWO_HANDED:37500]
[MINIMUM_SIZE:32500]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:3]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:17:200:bash:bashes:NO_SUB:2000]

[ITEM_WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_SWORD_SHORT]
[NAME:short sword:short swords]
[SIZE:300]
[SKILL:SWORD]
[TWO_HANDED:37500]
[MINIMUM_SIZE:32500]
[CAN_STONE]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:3]
[ATTACK:EDGE:20000:4000:slash:slashes:NO_SUB:1250]
[ATTACK:EDGE:30:2000:stab:stabs:NO_SUB:1000]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:20000:4000:slap:slaps:flat:1250]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:100:1000:strike:strikes:pommel:1000]

[ITEM_WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_HALBERD]
[NAME:halberd:halberds]
[SIZE:1200]
[SKILL:AXE]
[TWO_HANDED:77500]
[MINIMUM_SIZE:62500]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:5]
[ATTACK:EDGE:20000:8000:slash:slashes:NO_SUB:1250]
[ATTACK:EDGE:20:2000:stab:stabs:NO_SUB:1000]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:20000:6000:bash:bashes:shaft:1250]

[ITEM_WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_SWORD_2H]
[NAME:two-handed sword:two-handed swords]
[SIZE:900]
[SKILL:SWORD]
[TWO_HANDED:77500]
[MINIMUM_SIZE:62500]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:5]
[ATTACK:EDGE:100000:8000:slash:slashes:NO_SUB:1250]
[ATTACK:EDGE:40:4000:stab:stabs:NO_SUB:1000]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:100000:8000:slap:slaps:flat:1250]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:100:1000:strike:strikes:pommel:1000]

[ITEM_WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_SWORD_LONG]
[NAME:long sword:long swords]
[SIZE:700]
[SKILL:SWORD]
[TWO_HANDED:57500]
[MINIMUM_SIZE:52500]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:4]
[ATTACK:EDGE:60000:6000:slash:slashes:NO_SUB:1250]
[ATTACK:EDGE:40:3000:stab:stabs:NO_SUB:1000]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:60000:6000:slap:slaps:flat:1250]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:100:1000:strike:strikes:pommel:1000]

I've replaced the battle axe's "slap with the the flat of the blade" attack with an additional edge attack, with a contact area slightly smaller than a spear; hopefully, this should give a non-superior-material battle axe an attack which can penetrate armor with slightly better efficiency than a spear would have, but with only the penetration depth of a shortsword stab. Sounds reasonable.

Hammers have had their contact area increased from 10, which was, to be honest, pretty Jedi, to 17, which is slightly more powerful than a mace, which would be 20 [noting retroactively, that this is wrong. correct formula is below].

The old hierarchy of stab attacks from other armor-penetration-capable weapons:

spear (20) > all swords (50) = halberd (50)

Hopefully, with these modifications, it will go:

spear (20) = halberd (20) > short sword (30) > longer swords (40) > scimitar (50)

In vanilla, battle axes, unless they are of a superior material, rattle and rain off of enemy armor to no effect. You can chop off hands and feet, but that's it. A copper war hammer, on the other hand, will offer insta kills through steel helmets if the hammerer is skilled enough, and in general will brutalize any defender through even excellent armor. Since war hammers and battle axes were historically designed at about the same time, for the same purpose - punching through plate armor by concentrating force on a small area, either a hammer point or a curved blade on the end of a long stick - it'd be nice if they weren't polar opposites in this fashion. Likewise, the stab attacks of most other weapons against armor in vanilla are weapons of desperation, compared to the option of just using a hammer, unless you outclass the enemy's materials. I think it's boring if the game is just "go hammers until you get to steel," so here's hoping these changes work out. Not so much going for realism as just... something that makes sense. I would appreciate anybody else's help or criticism in tweaking the numbers and ideas. Thanks!

[Ari Lazarus]

Been a while since I looked at raws, so just a few quick comments - Girlinhat demonstrated how 'directed pressure' is calculated for blunt weapons:

Code: [Select]

(Density * Volume / 1,000,000) / Contact Area * Velocity Modifier
Due to the relationship between size and volume (Volume = Weapon Size / 10), warhammers and maces made of silver exert the same amount of directed pressure, which is 0.8392 kg/cm². This assumes that both weapons can be used by the dwarf properly (dwarf not too small). If we change warhammers to 17 contact area, they go to 0.4936 kg/cm², which is 42% or so less 'directed pressure' than the maces. This is probably unintended. In short, the size of a weapon also determines how much energy it can impart to an unlucky recipient. Maces are double the size of warhammers, so increasing the contact area on warhammers might gimp the output in more than one way.

Good idea on getting rid of slaps with blades (no one in real life does that, I think). My own research into dwarven weapons development kinda stopped once I realised it was a little hard to calculate how edged weapons work (contact area vs. penetration depth - do either even contribute to damage? Is density (weight) calculated in determining the power behind a blow? Etc. etc.).

Finally, my experience with edged and blunt attacks have been the exact opposite of yours - I find that slicing limbs and heads is much easier (and quicker) than beating on someone till they give into pain before crushing their skull in. And if the opponent does not feel pain? Well, we're pretty much shit out of luck. Especially if we can't reach their head. At the very least, bleeding out is much easier to accomplish with an axe than relying on internal injuries.

[kuki]

Been a while since I looked at raws, so just a few quick comments - Girlinhat demonstrated how 'directed pressure' is calculated for blunt weapons:

Code: [Select]

(Density * Volume / 1,000,000) / Contact Area * Velocity Modifier

Hay, there it is! A complete formula, instead of random guesses. Thank you. Any idea why warhammers feel like they're more powerful than maces in vanilla, if they should deliver an equivalent amount of directed pressure? Am I just wrong about that? It's something I noted in other !!science!! threads when I went looking around to start this experiment, people concluding that hammers rule in this version.

Finally, my experience with edged and blunt attacks have been the exact opposite of yours - I find that slicing limbs and heads is much easier (and quicker) than beating on someone till they give into pain before crushing their skull in. And if the opponent does not feel pain? Well, we're pretty much shit out of luck. Especially if we can't reach their head. At the very least, bleeding out is much easier to accomplish with an axe than relying on internal injuries.

It is a question of materials. With a steel battleaxe, against an iron armored opponent, the slash attack will cause death by blood loss or decapitation quickly, where a steel-wielding hammerer might waste many non-lethal blows on the same opponent, before the skull gets jammed through the brain. An iron battleaxe will not do anything to an iron armored opponent, but a copper hammer will be just as effective as a steel one. I realized this when a group of goblins wielding blunt weapons mulched me in a fight in fortress mode, when we all had equivalent materials and roughly equivalent skills, but I was wielding axes and they were wielding hammers.

amateurish testing notes edited in here (updated)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

-some preliminary testing of that additional battleaxe attack has been very satisfying. I did a few Hammer vs Axe arena duels between equivalent skilled, equivalent armored hammerdwarves and axedwarves and the fights just came down to who got the first significant hits in, rather than just........ hammertime. Which is what was happening in those arena duels when I did them before the change :3
-in 153 isolated duels between evenly skilled hammer and macedwarves, using vanilla settings for everything, hammerdwarves won 100 times and macedwarves won 53 times, giving hammers a more than 65% win rate vs maces; I'm convinced it's because, although they deliver an equivalent directed force when compared with maces, they are half the weight, and therefore faster and easier to handle. I will try larger scale testing with adjusted values to see if I can balance those weapons against eachother.

[Meph]

Just a little heads up:

Modest Mod merged with Accelerated DF: http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=7092  The modules in the extra folders I did not touch, so they might mess it up a little bit. I am just waiting on a bit of feedback from Igfig, before I do more. I combines the simpification and raise in FPS of my mod, with the bugfixes and balancing done by igfig.