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Author Topic: What do you think dwarf fortress be like in the future?  (Read 5816 times)

WaffleEggnog

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Re: What do you think dwarf fortress be like in the future?
« Reply #15 on: March 27, 2012, 02:49:55 pm »

Dwarves need to know how to attack enemys weak point for massive damage.

10 points if you got the reference.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2012, 03:32:59 pm by WaffleEggnog »
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WHEN POSSIBLE, I PREFER TO CONSUME YOUR FACE.

werechicken

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Re: What do you think dwarf fortress be like in the future?
« Reply #16 on: March 27, 2012, 05:10:38 pm »

Dwarves need to know how to attack enemys weak point for massive damage.

10 points if you got the reference.
Riiiiiiidge racer!

Any chance you're referring to a historically accurate giant enemy crab?

And to those who complain about the focus on adventure mode; fortress mode is a playable game, adventure mode is still lacking.

Also stuff like undead and vampires have made fortress mode allot more !!fun!!

I've got a feeling adventure mode and fortress mode will become.more interconnected.

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NW_Kohaku

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Re: What do you think dwarf fortress be like in the future?
« Reply #17 on: March 27, 2012, 05:32:21 pm »

It's also a problem as more Fortress Mode stuff gets integrated into Adventure Mode, however...

Let's say you want to be a (to pick a totally random job) clothier in Adventurer Mode, and play as a normal townsperson.  Unlike Fortress Mode, where you just tell a clothier to weave clothes together ad infinitum until the day the fortress self-destruct cave-in lever is pulled, in Adventurer Mode, you have to actually sit there and collect cloth, punch the "weave fabric" button, and then go sell that cloth...

As I was saying before in other fora, this is the sort of thing most games put a mini-game in to make interesting, but DF does not have any such infrastructure set up to handle that sort of thing.

Nope, just macro your way through it, that's all you can do.  Just go watch TV while your character goes through the motions of work.

Now consider the way that some people have been eagerly awaiting "making a fortress in Adventurer Mode!" You have to manually tell everyone what to do, they may or may not follow commands, you have to manually go look at everyone to make sure it's being done.  Your command-giving is context-sensitive, and as such, not easily macro-ed, and you have to micromanage every moving part in the system by hand, because the one thing about Adventurer Mode is that it's even MORE micromanagement-heavy than Fortress Mode.

Don't just sit there dreaming about how cool it will be to have a first-person perspective on running a fortress, consider how you actually will have to manage it through an interface.  You think the Fortress Mode interface is bad, wait until you have to do all of that through manually chasing down each dwarf and looking, speaking, and writing down information on each and every dwarf in every part of your fort just to figure out what the heck is going on.

The same often goes for Fortress Mode stuff, as well.  People only like to think about adding some random thingy into the fortress, but they don't stop and consider how they will be able to see and interact with their new thingy in ways that are meaningfully different from what they already have. 

Consider when eggs, wool, and (non-vermin) milking were added in, alongside grazing.  What changed?  You basically got more ways to get food and clothing.  You already get free infinite food and clothing from farms.  Since food is such a simple concept in the game, currently, any source of food is as good as any other, so it's really only a matter of which one is easier to manage.  Milking is manually intensive, and wool is not only manually intensive, but requires grazing, which is itself manually intensive with the pastures to the point that neither one is worth bothering with.  Eggs, meanwhile, are considered "almost cheating" because it's more free food without any sort of real effort short of setting up the nest boxes.  Even then, farming is easy to the point of being a fire-and-forget industry, itself.

Compare that to vampires - now, you have to search your migrants for a possible "sleeper agent" that seeks to undermine your fortress from within! THAT changes the way in which you play the game.  You don't have a different way of looking at the game, per se, but that's also part of the point, in that it makes it harder to track the suspects down.

This is a large part of the reason I was arguing such a complex case on the Improved Farming topic - we need to fundamentally break up the way in which we generate, use, and look at basic resources if the game is ever going to enable the sorts of complexities people are going to want out of the game.
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Personally, I like [DF] because after climbing the damned learning cliff, I'm too elitist to consider not liking it.
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Improved Farming
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werechicken

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Re: What do you think dwarf fortress be like in the future?
« Reply #18 on: March 27, 2012, 05:50:23 pm »

I guess it's realistic and immersive versus fun and accessible.

I actually really like the new fortress features, although I do agree they haven't added that much to the fortress mode. That being said it does lay the ground work for more impressive stuff like megabeast nests and stealing monster eggs to raise the offspring.

While toady does rely on contributions it's still his game, to develop anyway he pleases. If he wanted a large group dictating the direction of development then he could have sold it to any number of games companies for a tidy profit.

Also don't forget the merchant stuff is a prelude to the rewriting of mineral veins and the army arc, things which are definitely aimed at fortress mode

Anyways whatever will be, will be. Que sera, sera
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: What do you think dwarf fortress be like in the future?
« Reply #19 on: March 27, 2012, 06:41:56 pm »

A large corporation would want to make a game with enough fundamental changes (starting with interface from the ground up) to the game and the name recognition of DF is low enough that most major corporations wouldn't even bother with trying to buy the rights.  They'd simply make their own game from scratch using the elements that they thought most important to their own particular vision for a game, the way that Minecraft worked out. 

Anyway, it's not that it's dictation, it's something that he either has been putting off, considering it not as important, or something he just hasn't considered yet.  Toady has said that his grandparents were farmers, and that he wanted to include as much as he knew about soil chemistry as he could reasonably explain to players.  By and large, the Improved Farming thread was about how to best make the player capable of understanding and interacting with a complex system that at the same time was as minimally micromanagement-heavy, and as much automated as possible.

To declare it "dictation" at that implies more of the sneering attitude towards the creative sorts who make the game better for everyone, though.  This forum would be a very, very lonely place without modders, programmers, and the people who are serious about feedback for Toady.
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Personally, I like [DF] because after climbing the damned learning cliff, I'm too elitist to consider not liking it.
"And no Frankenstein-esque body part stitching?"
"Not yet"

Improved Farming
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Tharwen

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Re: What do you think dwarf fortress be like in the future?
« Reply #20 on: March 27, 2012, 09:37:42 pm »

There will be a million more DWARF FORTRESS RIPOFF OMG IT HAS DWARVES TOO
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Niyazov

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Re: What do you think dwarf fortress be like in the future?
« Reply #21 on: March 27, 2012, 11:17:32 pm »

By and large, the Improved Farming thread was about how to best make the player capable of understanding and interacting with a complex system that at the same time was as minimally micromanagement-heavy, and as much automated as possible.

You've crystallized the heart and soul of DF to me. It's a kind of complexity that doesn't arise from expanding the raws or adding features, but that is also likewise not a product of procedural generation in the way that terrain or forgotten beast features are. It's the sort of complexity that is the result of careful and thoughtful systemic design that allows complexity to emerge on its own yet remain meaningful and manageable (albeit frequently teetering at the edge of cataclysmic collapse- this is Dwarf Fortress, after all).
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Mercur1c

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Re: What do you think dwarf fortress be like in the future?
« Reply #22 on: March 28, 2012, 03:49:20 am »

It would still be pretty cool to be able to walk around your fort in first person, but be able to manage it from above, ala Zoo Tycoon 2.
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nogoodnames

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Re: What do you think dwarf fortress be like in the future?
« Reply #23 on: March 28, 2012, 04:35:35 am »

It would still be pretty cool to be able to walk around your fort in first person, but be able to manage it from above, ala Zoo Tycoon 2.
Check out the DF to Minecraft utility. It's pretty awe-inspiring to see your huge above ground fort from a dwarf's perspective. Hopefully someone updates it to the latest version so it can take advantage of the increased world height.
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Mercur1c

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Re: What do you think dwarf fortress be like in the future?
« Reply #24 on: March 28, 2012, 04:44:26 am »

Yes, I have heard of it, not the same though, would be good to see all the workshops, and work in them to actually get stuff done, etc.

It would also be cool to be able to go into your computer, ala Tron. Probably wouldn't end well though.
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jaxy15

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Re: What do you think dwarf fortress be like in the future?
« Reply #25 on: March 29, 2012, 03:40:36 pm »

Every single thing would be ridiculously detailed.

"You hack the small roc man in the right upper arm, 2 inches away from the shoulder, with your rusty sharp cracked bronze battleaxe, and the severed part sails off in an arc!"
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Leatra

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Re: What do you think dwarf fortress be like in the future?
« Reply #26 on: March 29, 2012, 04:13:45 pm »

After years, Dwarf fortress will be a very advanced game but the lag in Dwarf Fortress will spiral out of control and every computer that attempts to run DF wil explode. Majority of the Bay12 community will die because of the explosion when they try to get the game running. Several contries will ban DF and Bay12 will be an underground community. New members will be accepted by drinking contests. People who naturally lacks a beard won't be accepted. An unknown assassin will kill Toady's decoy. Toady will vanish and spread false rumors about his death. He will start to work on multithreading in his secret base. Only a few members will know that Toady is still living. Game will become a legacy and Bay12 will wait for the chosen one who will create an alternative to multithreading.
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thvaz

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Re: What do you think dwarf fortress be like in the future?
« Reply #27 on: March 29, 2012, 05:46:10 pm »

Other unfunny people will be making the same bad old jokes.
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Leatra

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Re: What do you think dwarf fortress be like in the future?
« Reply #28 on: March 29, 2012, 06:07:41 pm »

It wasn't supposed to be funny. Just to make readers think.

...

Nah, I was just kidding. I don't want to be flamed and called a troll.
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Howando

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Re: What do you think dwarf fortress be like in the future?
« Reply #29 on: March 30, 2012, 08:06:27 am »

Quote
oh and of course a user interface that doesn't immediately frighten off 90% of new or prospective players and pose serious usability problems even for people who have been playing for years

OMG! CLICKABLE CONTEXT MENU ON TILES CREATURES WORKSHOPS ITEMS STORAGE EVERYTHING!!!
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