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[NW_Kohaku]

YOU GET FOOD, WE GET SOLDIERS AND HAULERS, DEAL?


Enough said, seriously. I read until page four of people going on "oh elves can do that but dwarves cant" and "no there culture dictates it" and "Oh they can do what they can, there culture is all thats stopping them" crap. Seriously guys, serious?

Naturally.

Such a simple system is boring and unfun/unFun.

It's not DF if it doesn't have a complex to the degree of being pointlessly detailed system where the tigerman liason can recount the insult a dwarf once made about his/her great-aunt's kink in her tail in the year 138 and demand an additional +slate mug+ as recompense, lest there be political ramifications, and your best tigerman armorsmith will suddenly be reassigned and replaced with a tigerman soapmaker.

[Splint]

Tigermen don't strike me as ones who care about insults, just more like tell us who to kill instead of your dwarves. Barring that, tell us what dwarf you hate so we can entertain ourselves.

And I'm sure if we had the ability to do it, those of us who want the simple non-cultural-political version would mod it in ourselves. I'd say try using the caste system, but that reportedly led to rather... odd occurances.

[Detoxicated]

Haha, I would love to see them spermwhalemen working in the coalmines.

[Corai]

Haha, I would love to see them spermwhalemen working in the coalmines.

YOU SICK BASTARD.


Your a genius.

[Splint]

Haha, I would love to see them spermwhalemen working in the coalmines.

YOU SICK BASTARD.


Your a genius.

No, not a genius. A Dwarf!

[Niyazov]

Think about it: Would YOU want to live next door to a weird scaley person with a viper's head

Hell yeah that sounds awesome

[GreatWyrmGold]

Well, dwarves are supposed to be like normal people, not Bay12ers. Try asking your friends who don't play DF if they'd like to live next door to a weird scaley person with a viper's head.

[Babylon]

Also, if you had read the post, you would have noted that there is a difference between slaves and these sub-sapients. You see a slave is already a member of one civ, who was imprisoned by another civ. These integrated tribesmen are basically in a different position, as a dwarf might feel that he needs to beat civilization into a tribalist. Also i don't see why dwarves wouldn't enslave somebody. Isn't putting a forgotten beast in a chamber to produce limitless silk also a form of slavery, if you consider that forgotten beasts are sapient? The game does not recognize it as such, but if you think about it...

Also, even if the dwarves wouldn't do it, I could totally see the humans do it.

Real life slavery was practiced on tribal people so I think this comes awfully close.  You're talking about an uplift process, when the sparrowmen and such are actually already sentient, just quite primitive.

[Babylon]

Dwarves do have a physiological reason for being good miners, cave adaptation.  Another race that does not cave adapt isn't going to be as comfortable working underground.

[NW_Kohaku]

Dwarves do have a physiological reason for being good miners, cave adaptation.  Another race that does not cave adapt isn't going to be as comfortable working underground.

Actually, I believe you have that backwards - they are cave adapted because they spend so much time underground, not they spend all their time underground because they are cave adapted. 

Cave adaptation is a weakness, not a strength.

[Babylon]

YOU GET FOOD, WE GET SOLDIERS AND HAULERS, DEAL?


Enough said, seriously. I read until page four of people going on "oh elves can do that but dwarves cant" and "no there culture dictates it" and "Oh they can do what they can, there culture is all thats stopping them" crap. Seriously guys, serious?

Seriously yes.  This is dwarf fortress after all,  the most complicated game there is.

Also, you can already mod in soldiers and haulers of other races, so if it were that simple no need for Toady to get involved.

[Babylon]

Dwarves do have a physiological reason for being good miners, cave adaptation.  Another race that does not cave adapt isn't going to be as comfortable working underground.

Actually, I believe you have that backwards - they are cave adapted because they spend so much time underground, not they spend all their time underground because they are cave adapted. 

Cave adaptation is a weakness, not a strength.

cave adaptation is a token, other races don't have it.  For that to make sense with the plot there must be more to it than just puking in the sun.

[NW_Kohaku]

cave adaptation is a token, other races don't have it.  For that to make sense with the plot there must be more to it than just puking in the sun.

I'm not sure how much you can say that Dwarf Fortress has a "plot", but, anyway, Cave Adaptation is something that occurs, again, because dwarves were already living underground for generations, and many dwarves either never see the sun, or only see it during their immigration to the fort, and as such, lose their resistance to that hateful, hateful Sun. 

This does not denote that they are better adapted to life underground by itself, it merely denotes they can be vulnerable to adapting to life aboveground. 

Or, in other words, their adaptations to life underground should be manifest in other forms of tokens that are actual benefits.  Unless we start having things like darkvision, give dwarves actual bonuses to fighting with a rough ceiling over their head to make their shortness an adaptation to caves, or something of the like, those aren't benefits.

[Splint]

Dwarves do have a physiological reason for being good miners, cave adaptation.  Another race that does not cave adapt isn't going to be as comfortable working underground.

Actually, I believe you have that backwards - they are cave adapted because they spend so much time underground, not they spend all their time underground because they are cave adapted. 

Cave adaptation is a weakness, not a strength.

cave adaptation is a token, other races don't have it.  For that to make sense with the plot there must be more to it than just puking in the sun.

The result of cave adaptaion when fighting above ground is nausea and vomit. nausea is bad because it reduces combat effectivness and I think slightly hurts agility. While underground, the invers happens where sufficently adapted dwarves appear to gain a small bonus in combat and movement. Likewise, most cavern dwellers would obviously be rather uncomfortable aboveground, while  say, tigermen or humans would end up suffering far worse, with drastically decreased movment speed and nausea lasting longer to represent thier less adaptivness to caves with them staggering about like complete fools in the bright sunlight (cave adaptation would probably hurt above ground predator-men the worst, due to thier more sensitive eyesight.)

[NW_Kohaku]

Cave adaptation doesn't happen on tigermen and the like, however.  They can go underground, but that doesn't mean they are cave-adapted. 

Likewise, dwarves that periodically travel aboveground avoid cave adaptation. 

Again, this is a matter of putting the cart before the horse - cave adaptation is caused by generations spending life underground, having cave adaptation doesn't cause creatures to start living underground. 

In order for cave adaptation to be justified there must have been an original cause for that shift to being an underground creature that had nothing to do with cave adaptation.