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[Captain Crazy]

I say that a multiracial fort would get people out of the monotony of an average fort. Citizens with a body size larger than, say, 75,000 could have bad thoughts like "Worked/Slept in a far too cramped tunnel" unless the underground had an extra Z level. Flying citizens could have bad thoughts like "Was unable to stretch his/her wings", and good thoughts like "Had a good/great/fantastic flight recently". Amphibious citizens could have bad thoughts like "Was unable to/Did not have the time to swim", or, "Swam in dingy/filthy/absolutely abhorrent water lately", and good thoughts like "Swam in uncontaminated/good/wonderful/comfortably heated water recently." This could add incentive to add human-like villages to the larger, surface civilians, aviary-like villages for the flying civilians with tiered housing and shops, and communes with water roads and heated pools for the amphibians.

Why would you go through all this work, though? Ask the poor kobold thief getting his nose punched though his spinal column by a pissed-off Tigerman Champion. I'd imagine that clothier's shops/smithies/bowyer's shoppes could have extra options like "Make Tunic (Bark Scorpion Man Sized)", or "Forge Longsword (Parakeet Man Sized)", or even "Make Crossbow(Grasshopper Man Sized)". The size modifier could be operable by some unused keys, and could result in a fort with every race occupying it happily clothed and armed, like a little multi-species utopia.

And if the Animal-Men are fleshed out further (and useless ones weeded out), we could have varying attributes to help each individual find a role for itself in the fort. If Mantismen got far higher fearlessness averages, A particularly hardened Mantiswoman with a knack for siege engines would operate a ballista, stand her ground and fire missiles right until the enemy is occupying the same tile as her. If turtlemen and other 'slow' races of creatures had higher tolerance averages, a Pond Turtle Man would make a great mayor, as his higher averages would allow him to easily grasp Consoler and Pacifier skills (and his office would probably have a jacuzzi). Of course, this is just averages, as there would still be hot-headed Turtlemen, skittish Mantismen, and lax Badgermen, etc, just as there are nice goblins in human towns.

An added thing: if you somehow, against all odds, nab a friendly Giant or other intelligent megabeast, or even a Titan or particularly well-mannered Forgotten Beast, they could have ridiculous living condition needs. The "shallow ceilings" thought could be amplified tenfold, and thoughts such as "Was put off/depressed/absolutely enraged by a lack of wealth as of late". Maybe they could even demand sacrifice, depending on their personality (a friendly, social Ettin/Cyclops/Giant wouldn't need sacrifice or wealth, but a mean, domineering one would throw rages when they don't get a sacrifice in their name.) This would tie in to how civs would worship powerful beasts, and I think it would be awesome to first-hand overseee a Mountainhome with an in-house Megabeast king or something.

Sorry if this is a tad off-topic, but I wanted to bring up some points without touching that "slavery" territory.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Hm, some good points. I'll break the ones I like best down:

1. Non-dwarves needs:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Dwarves are usually easy to please; give 'em a bed, food, booze, and an awesome dining room and they're set. Other races might have more, fewer, and/or different needs. Many aboveground animalmen, as well as elves and maybe humans, would need some sunshine to be happy. Amphibianmen would need abundant fresh water to not be dehydrated. Some taller races, like some animalfolk and maybe humans, might need more headroom. Some other animalpeople and kobolds would need meat to eat; goblins, bearpeople, and so forth would prefer meat; and some other animalpeople would prefer fish. Without these kinds of needs being met, these races would lose happiness, or maybe their lives. On the other hand, some races might have an easier time with upkeep. For most animalpeople, having a specific place to sleep of a couple tiles per tribesmember would be a great luxury that they're not familiar with, beds optional. Kobolds and smaller animalfolk would be able to subsist happily on rodents or even insects (for frogmen, lizardmen, etc). Some animalmen could/would graze rather than eat. Elves might be perfectly fine with no furniture to call their own as long as they have access to the trees they love. And so forth. Basically, someone wanting to accomadate additional races would be exchanging certain needs that the new race lacks for certain others that they add, in addition to exchanging new abilities for social intrigue.

2. Semi/Megabeast Allies

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Basically, the idea of having a semi- or megabeast ally itself (or BE allied) to your fortress would be an awesome development. I'd like to see it. However, for most, such as titans, it'd make sense for this alliance to follow the taming-and-training used on dragons and the like for now, until such time as the way you tame dragons changes. Semimegabeasts, on the other hand...They would be as interesting as any other race to add to the game.

[Captain Crazy]

Well, I'd imagine that animal-men that are based off of insect-eating creatures couldn't survive off of insects alone. I'd assume that civilians of different species would get acclimated to dwarven 'cuisine' instead of having restrictive diets.

Kobolds and the smaller animal creatures aren't small enough to subsist on vermin, too. Give those poor little buggers a roast once in a while, will ya?

[GreatWyrmGold]

If, in emergencies, dwarves can subsist on nothing but rats and bugs, it would make sense that both kobolds and insectovorous-animalmen could survive on vermin. Maybe they'd eat roasts or raw meat, but they'd probably be fine with vermin. Unless they were doing most of the work and their dwarven overlords were eating like kings on the sweat of their backs...but that ties back to all of the social issues we were discussing earlier.

[Splint]

I would imagine kobolds would prefer what dwarves have; it seems like it'd be a major improvment from what they're used to. Same with some animalmen. I would imagine a good thought could even emerge from thier becoming citizens "Was happy thier tribe could find a new/permanent home." That'd be a one time deal, so they aren't liable to imediatly flip thier lids on you. Since they're usually naked, they'd need a reduced unhappiness deal from no clothes until that need is met when they first join a fortress.

1. Non-dwarves needs:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Dwarves are usually easy to please; give 'em a bed, food, booze, and an awesome dining room and they're set. Other races might have more, fewer, and/or different needs. Many aboveground animalmen, as well as elves and maybe humans, would need some sunshine to be happy. Amphibianmen would need abundant fresh water to not be dehydrated. Some taller races, like some animalfolk and maybe humans, might need more headroom. Some other animalpeople and kobolds would need meat to eat; goblins, bearpeople, and so forth would prefer meat; and some other animalpeople would prefer fish. Without these kinds of needs being met, these races would lose happiness, or maybe their lives. On the other hand, some races might have an easier time with upkeep. For most animalpeople, having a specific place to sleep of a couple tiles per tribesmember would be a great luxury that they're not familiar with, beds optional. Kobolds and smaller animalfolk would be able to subsist happily on rodents or even insects (for frogmen, lizardmen, etc). Some animalmen could/would graze rather than eat. Elves might be perfectly fine with no furniture to call their own as long as they have access to the trees they love. And so forth. Basically, someone wanting to accomadate additional races would be exchanging certain needs that the new race lacks for certain others that they add, in addition to exchanging new abilities for social intrigue.

2. Semi/Megabeast Allies

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Basically, the idea of having a semi- or megabeast ally itself (or BE allied) to your fortress would be an awesome development. I'd like to see it. However, for most, such as titans, it'd make sense for this alliance to follow the taming-and-training used on dragons and the like for now, until such time as the way you tame dragons changes. Semimegabeasts, on the other hand...They would be as interesting as any other race to add to the game.

I also think those would be pretty good, since you'd need to cater to your new workers or possibly the most frightening soldier you have. Could you imagine a goblin's face when he sees a bunch of grasshoppermen, an armed and armored giant, and winged, antenna'd, fire/syndrom firing dimetrodon, along with the usual dwarven troops bearing down on him? I would think no amount of troops, trolls, and critters I brought would make a difference. And that'd be fun as all hell to watch.

It would also be nice, in the case of animalmen that would likely eat bugs and kobolds who probably have to subsist on vermin unless they can figure out what seeds are what would probably be the ones to finally make use of animal traps. I know I don't use them much.

And on the food thing, I think it'd really depend on the animalman. Some might be easy to offend (was annoyed/angered by the subaverage rations lately) and would care if they keep getting bottom rung stuff and dwarves are getting better while more easy going ones wouldn't care in the slightest: Food is food, and I got some.

[Captain Crazy]

and winged, antenna'd, fire/syndrom firing dimetrodon, along with the usual dwarven troops bearing down on him?

For some reason, I don't really imagine citizen megabeasts to go to war. They'd probably be content to slumber, to be worshiped and fanned by followers, to guzzle booze and to ogle statues of itself contentedly. If the megabeast had a more knight-like outlook, they would enjoy fighting among your soldiers, but more vain and lazy megabeasts would probably tantrum if they had to do anything outside of their royal chambers.

[Splint]

Yeah, I could see that. Would still be awesome though.

[GreatWyrmGold]

I never claimed that kobolds would ONLY eat vermin, just that they wouldn't mind if they had to.


An idea of how to solve the clothing-of-creatures-which-are-different-sizes-or-shapes-from-dwarves issue: Have a way to give cloth/leather to the various ethnic communities in your fortress, which any clothiers/leatherworkers will then turn into clothes as needed. Maybe similar things could be done with other raw materials, which you might be able to buy back from them as craft goods...hm...

[Zale]

and winged, antenna'd, fire/syndrom firing dimetrodon, along with the usual dwarven troops bearing down on him?

For some reason, I don't really imagine citizen megabeasts to go to war. They'd probably be content to slumber, to be worshiped and fanned by followers, to guzzle booze and to ogle statues of itself contentedly. If the megabeast had a more knight-like outlook, they would enjoy fighting among your soldiers, but more vain and lazy megabeasts would probably tantrum if they had to do anything outside of their royal chambers.

"Sir.. The goblins have broken through our defenses.. I'm sorry.. but.. they've stolen.. your.. your booze, master."

Forgotten Beast McLazy cancels lounge: Enraged.
Forgotten Beast McLazy is Enraged.
 

[Splint]

And then the goblins learned why thier demonic masters tell them NOT to go into the caverns if they can help it.

[Detoxicated]

As far as observation of the complexity-loving popolous goes, I gathered some ideas to make multiracial forts make sense in historical means.

First: It would be a requirement to actually change the animalmen from sapient animals to nomadic entities. This would be especially important for mechanics of Xenophobia and immigration likeliness. Each bigger band of Animalman would be considered a tribe, and would have own interactions with the bigger, civilization like, entities. This would be important to have individual considerations for different animalmen. For instance, if a specific tigerman tribe had attacked the dwarven civ your in in the past, the dwarves from said civ should consider this tribe in specific but also all tigerman to be less trustworthy than a different tribe of a different race which happened to be peaceful towards the dwarven civ.

Second: You would need a solid noble who takes care of immigration in general (a noble comparable to the manager) and a screen to adjust settings for individual tribes and the laws regarding their immigration. I picture this with individual tribenames on the left, species in the middle, and status on the right. The status would imply how immigration would work, and could be set to different states like: Forbidden, Highly Restricted, Allowed but Discouraged, Allowed, Allowed and Encouraged.

Third: To make this work, diplomatic relations must become more dynamic throughout the gameplay. So if you happen to help refugees from a tribe you're at war with, it should give you a big boost towards peace with said tribe, if you let their members stay at the fortress to supply food and medicine.

Fourth: Each tribesman of a different species, should be able to produce weapons and armors for his species OR you could designate forges and workshops to produce weapons and armors for different species (E.G. You still build by pressing q + whatever, but there is a field in the workshop screen perhaps by pressing z, which designates for which species the items shall be) It is still discussable in what way new armortypes and weapons are gained, maybe with the help of a system similar to the taming screen.

Fifth: Children of animalmen who immigrated to your civ, should be more accepted and more adepted than their parents, as they learned dwarven ways from day 1 while their parents used to live in a tribe. 4


Any more points to add to my conclusion?

[NW_Kohaku]

I would generally agree with that, Detoxicated, although I would go into more detail about that number 3.

I rather like a notion that animalmen civs are proud of their own traditions, and may not want to assimilate easily into dwarven culture, and prefer "the old ways".  I'd like to see a sort of pride meter in play, and a cultural distinctness that can be blurred over time as cultures are side-by-side and co-mingle.

I also like the notion of individual loyalties and affinities for one culture or another.  A more spartan tribe of animalmen might have a sensitive artist type who prefers dwarven culture more than his own tribe's culture because he enjoys the act of engraving artwork on every available stone surface.

[Bytyan]

I agree with Kohaku. We should remember that just because a dwarf values something, doesn't mean all races value the same thing. Perhaps kobolds resent having to live on *dwarven roasts*, and wouldn't be satisfied without some live rats to break the monotony. Perhaps tigermen would prefer sleeping on the floor, or at least having their beds free of menacing spikes. People make the same assumptions trying to help real cultures in "need", with unfortunate results/

[RhymeNorReason]

Is this on the Eternal Suggestion voting? If  it is, I can't find it. On another note, you're all brilliant!

[Splint]

Now potential unfortunate results would be interesting....