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[Supersnes]

One thing that could make religion more important is that gods and demons can choose a champion to represent them if they don't have a physical form.  These champions can go from being a regular peasant npc or player character to a hero/demigod status.  Besides the overall stat boost these individuals could also have their skills boosted equally across the board--or like in creation menu--dump points into already strong skills to become even more powerful, and/or boost there weaknesses so they are less evident.  The skill boost allocation can be attributed to the god in question. 

These champions would have markings to signify their covenant with the deity.  These can be marking such as stigmata, tatoos, extra body parts (a third eye), etc..  This can make the champion recognizable wherever they go, both adding and hindering them.  Champions aligned with a god of a local religion can be welcomed by the villagers, unless the religion is of a demon that terrorizes the region.  this could work out in that the Champion can approach otherwise distrustful settlements and be welcomed immediately, unlike having to establish a baseline trust, and be bestowed armor, food, water, liquor, and other gifts.  On the other hand a alignment with a demon/evil god could make any villager hostile.  The villagers would be resentful/paranoid/ fearful of the champion.  They would hide indoors, lock doors, run into the wilderness, make sacrifices to the champion to be spared, etc.  However, the current game probably wouldn't support this as npcs will attack almost anything hostile to their civ.  Here is a thread that explains the trust/fear aspect and its implementation:   http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=105400.0.


Overall the champion can lead to whole levels of fun.  Depending on alignment the champion may rise to be a great military leader and have many followers to fight the forces of evil in a mighty crusade.  The champion could help conquer entire regions in the name of the religion, defend the region from external/internal force, and/or fight the legions of night creatures, titans, and megabeasts.   
Inversely, the champion of demons and mad gods will not seek out followers from villages and forts of good alignment.  Instead the champions minions can be recruited from night creatures, titans, megabeasts, goblins, necromancers, witches, and devious humans and elves through magical and blood pacts.  These armies of the damned can be used to spread fear and terror across the different civs.  If enough bloodshed is spilt--through battle, massacre, sacrifice of prisoners volunteers--the demon/god may be summoned and brought into the world, rendering a great cataclysm. 


Over time the champion may have enough of a following to become the ruler of the region in question and may even be seen and worshiped as a new god--to the irk of the god(s)/demon who bestowed the powers.  This can set up interesting betrayal set up where the god can curse/banish the champion making them the evil that they were sent to destroy and/or the champion can rise and usurp the god/demon and banish them to the earth.

An interesting aspect of this would be that the player may not be the main focus.  Instead, as in Oblivion, the player is merely a companion of the champion--following them into battle, transporting orders and supplies between camps/towns/forts, retrieving holy/tainted relics, etc..  The player would almost be a bystander able to sit back and watch the world change and form. 

Whether or not the player is a champion there can be pitched battles between good and evil champions and their amassed forces.  These battles can possibly determine the future of entire civilizations and the outcome that the world will become.  This can create a great importance in fighting as the fate of the world can be at stake.

Furthermore, champions may have artifact weapons and armor of great power and ability.  Crusading champions may have holy blades and armor that dispel and exorcise the evils of the world while a demon follower can have weapons and armor that taint the air around them, driving those around them to madness, and melting them into victims into magma/acid/syndromes fun piles.

[NW_Kohaku]

Oh, wow, didn't expect that link to go over to that thread...

Actually, if we are talking about Gods directly interfering, one thing I discussed in an earlier thread was Physical Gods. 

As in, Dwarf Zeus, literally hopping down off Mt. Dwarflympus, and spreading his divine reproductive spores to all the female dwarves in your fort or something.  Including the ones that are already married... and already pregnant.  And no birth control. 

... Suckers!

Then Dwarf Hera will hate your fortress, and try to magma flood you or something, so be careful.

But more seriously, what's a more epic ending of an adventure than actually, literally, challenging a God to single combat?  (Enjoy your electric pin-cushioning.)



Anyway, keep in mind that DF isn't quite geared to "Good vs. Evil" so much as "Things trying to kill you vs. Survival".  It's a game where filthy, evil things living in a hole win by being better prepared than the filthy, evil things coming out of holes to attack them. 

The gods of poetry or fertility or fishing or somesuch are more common than a god of holy war against the unfaithful.  Maybe the guy will come out of his union with the fishing god with gills or fishing tackle hanging off his body parts?  He'll fight in a neverending crusade against the high cholesterol of beef, and champion the dietary benefits of a seafood-heavy diet.

[Supersnes]

Oh, wow, didn't expect that link to go over to that thread...

Actually, if we are talking about Gods directly interfering, one thing I discussed in an earlier thread was Physical Gods. 

As in, Dwarf Zeus, literally hopping down off Mt. Dwarflympus, and spreading his divine reproductive spores to all the female dwarves in your fort or something.  Including the ones that are already married... and already pregnant.  And no birth control. 

... Suckers!

Then Dwarf Hera will hate your fortress, and try to magma flood you or something, so be careful.

But more seriously, what's a more epic ending of an adventure than actually, literally, challenging a God to single combat?  (Enjoy your electric pin-cushioning.)



Anyway, keep in mind that DF isn't quite geared to "Good vs. Evil" so much as "Things trying to kill you vs. Survival".  It's a game where filthy, evil things living in a hole win by being better prepared than the filthy, evil things coming out of holes to attack them. 

The gods of poetry or fertility or fishing or somesuch are more common than a god of holy war against the unfaithful.  Maybe the guy will come out of his union with the fishing god with gills or fishing tackle hanging off his body parts?  He'll fight in a neverending crusade against the high cholesterol of beef, and champion the dietary benefits of a seafood-heavy diet.

Nice to see how we can make the system as dworfy as possible!!   But yeah the whole evil/good dichotomy shouldn't be evil is evil and good is good with no in between, but rather it needs to be a matter of perspective.  Kind of like one religion/civ viewing another as barbaric and impure;so that the player can enter neutrally into this conflict.  This can lead to things like the missionary and conquests done by some countries over the millennia where a strong powerful nation completely massacres another much smaller, weak nation in order to show them the "true path".  The members of the large nation, for the most part, will view the invasion as just while the player and the rest of the world and future generations can see the act as deplorable (i.e. The Crusades, Nazi invasion and installation of the final resolution, etc.).  However, this system would need to allow descent to general opinion, much like was discussed in the link in my previous post, where personal opinions of justice can outweigh national/religious loyalty.  This can lead to things like resistance groups and espionage to limit and hinder the progress of the nation in question.

Kinda got sidetracked but in truth there should be a grey area where champions can be neutral to other conflicts simply due to them not being affected.  For example if two civ. go to war, the champion--who may be contracted to a nature spirit--can just sit in their forest/cave/hill/etc. and let the war happen.  Not getting involved until the war enters into their sphere of influence/duty and/or affects their aligned deity, in which both sides will be viewed as enemies and dealt with accordingly.

[orius]

I had some recent ideas about priests where they impact the social life of the fort and provide defenses against vampires, necromancer invasions, effects of evil biomes, etc.

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=102005.0

[NW_Kohaku]

We've had a lot of threads on religion, haven't we... I held myself back from posting another I did on different spheres that could be put in alongside/replacing the good/evil spheres, but we might just end up with a thread that is nothing but a giant series of links

[Supersnes]

We've had a lot of threads on religion, haven't we... I held myself back from posting another I did on different spheres that could be put in alongside/replacing the good/evil spheres, but we might just end up with a thread that is nothing but a giant series of links

Ain't that the truth.  Actually I think it would be pretty interesting if we can get these ideas consolidated into a single doc and/or post so there can be a single location to view the suggested ideas and their underlying implications.  Only downside is the time its going to take to go through them all and organize into the proper topics and subcategories.

[NW_Kohaku]

Ain't that the truth.  Actually I think it would be pretty interesting if we can get these ideas consolidated into a single doc and/or post so there can be a single location to view the suggested ideas and their underlying implications.  Only downside is the time its going to take to go through them all and organize into the proper topics and subcategories.

We used to have a lot of "Megathreads".  Like this one on cooking. 

I don't mind it when you have a giant "thread web" that organizes the whole discussion and has sub-thread discussions on specifics, but that thread, I had a little problem with, since it was basically just a big disorganized bin of ideas that didn't link back to their original threads until someone else came along and did it.

Anyway, it might not hurt to have a giant religion/gods/magic megathread where someone tries to organize out every idea and focus discussion on specific aspects of how all the different component parts might start moving together. 

If you want to go that route, I can collect a great big pile of religion thread links, and help you sort them out.

[Gotdamnmiracle]

Ain't that the truth.  Actually I think it would be pretty interesting if we can get these ideas consolidated into a single doc and/or post so there can be a single location to view the suggested ideas and their underlying implications.  Only downside is the time its going to take to go through them all and organize into the proper topics and subcategories.

We used to have a lot of "Megathreads".  Like this one on cooking. 

I don't mind it when you have a giant "thread web" that organizes the whole discussion and has sub-thread discussions on specifics, but that thread, I had a little problem with, since it was basically just a big disorganized bin of ideas that didn't link back to their original threads until someone else came along and did it.

Anyway, it might not hurt to have a giant religion/gods/magic megathread where someone tries to organize out every idea and focus discussion on specific aspects of how all the different component parts might start moving together. 

If you want to go that route, I can collect a great big pile of religion thread links, and help you sort them out.

Let's just make it religion and gods. Magic is a whole 'nother barrel of monkeys as you probably know.

[Supersnes]

It would be good to probably structure it like some of your (NW_Kohaku) other post where you have spoiler tagged topics that open into many of the subtopic and so on and so forth.  Being on my school game dev. team I can understand the importance of having an easy to understand and accessible document.  The only problem is I'm swamped with school work and likely will not have time till this summer, which the internet access is questionable.  However, I can look into possibly helping with this in free time.

I agree magic can probably be left out.  Even if it does tie into gods and religion it technically doesn't have to be directly related and can be used independently of affiliation/worship.

[NW_Kohaku]

Let's just make it religion and gods. Magic is a whole 'nother barrel of monkeys as you probably know.

Yes, but it's just a barrel of monkeys now, it used to be a !!barrel of war monkeys!! when we didn't have Toady working on more obviously magical things like mummies and vampires and werewolves and curses and necromancy. 

Before now, there was a huge degree of warfare over the simple question of whether or not magic should even exist in the game.  You had people who wanted DF to have a magic system like D&D and other people who wanted to have a totally-steampunk-but-for-some-reason-dragons-and-zombies-can-stay type of world.  Now, we're getting more clarity on a Sphere-based magic system, so the discussion can be focused somewhat.

I also remember a statement from back when I was talking about the old Xenosynthesis topic that Toady said that he wanted to encourage people to come up with as many different kinds of exotic magic systems as possible, so that he can try an "and the kitchen sink" approach to magic.  That is, don't get bogged down in why Vancian magic is so great, just name every possible magic system you can think of for sheer variety.

It would be good to probably structure it like some of your (NW_Kohaku) other post where you have spoiler tagged topics that open into many of the subtopic and so on and so forth.

I think it might be possible to do a "thread web" setup, however.  If we have a main central thread for collection of the general thesis and idea, and then sub-threads for specific topics, it could work.  That way, something like magic systems could be its own thread, and not derail a discussion about specific aspects of divine descriptions or behaviors in-game, which might be in a separate thread from the ways in which spheres interact with the game world.  So long as it's only like three threads that are broad enough to be their own topics that just happen to be tied together, it shouldn't be abusive of the forums to have a few inter-related threads. 

That might also overcome the major threat my own threads face: tl;dr. 

I can't get people to comment on my threads because the number of people actually willing to sit down and read most of them are single digit numbers.  Even with the organization, if people see they have to scroll down to get to another post, they tend to say "screw it".  Breaking things up into more and more posts to "trick" people into going ahead with a more detailed topic is a strategy I'm starting to consider trying.

[Supersnes]

Ok I see what your are saying. Instead of having a book we are shooting to have more of an index, which if possible can become stickied and act as a way to locate like topics instead of the search bar's often random hits.

[NW_Kohaku]

Ok I see what your are saying. Instead of having a book we are shooting to have more of an index, which if possible can become stickied and act as a way to locate like topics instead of the search bar's often random hits.

Yeah, basically.

A "megathread" consisting of a library of links, and then maybe a spin-off set of threads that cover more specific topics, and are linked back to the megathread.  The megathread is then updated to make a "this is the spectrum of ideas" type of overview.

If you try to make a megathread, I suggest you make a nearly-empty post or two to modify later on... I find that if I really get going on something, I might break the puny 40,000 character cap this place has.

[Gotdamnmiracle]

Ok I see what your are saying. Instead of having a book we are shooting to have more of an index, which if possible can become stickied and act as a way to locate like topics instead of the search bar's often random hits.

Yeah, basically.

A "megathread" consisting of a library of links, and then maybe a spin-off set of threads that cover more specific topics, and are linked back to the megathread.  The megathread is then updated to make a "this is the spectrum of ideas" type of overview.

If you try to make a megathread, I suggest you make a nearly-empty post or two to modify later on... I find that if I really get going on something, I might break the puny 40,000 character cap this place has.

So it's decided? Megathread? Let's start one. Not here. We'll pour in ideas. Religion and gods, magic not included.

[Urist McSpike]

Wow, that's about like opening the caverns. 

So, first off, I'd like to say that I completely understand that Toady will do things as he see's fit.  I don't have the attitude that my idea must be the "one true way" - I just threw out some ideas based on how the game currently plays out, plus some possible features or benefits for it.

I could see religion becoming a need after a certain size, although I was trying to keep my ideas simple.  Heck, if we look at real life examples, settlers in the US spent a lot of resources on religion.  (For example, this church in a town of about 1200.)

And I guess I'll look at the megathread and toss out related ideas there.