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Total Members Voted: 9

Voting closed: April 04, 2012, 03:44:35 pm

[Kilroy the Grand]

No, this was a vigilante killing. Zimmerman was pursuing someone he presumed to be a criminal and later killed that person. Vigilante killings that aren't an every day occurrence and tend to make the news. Remember Joe Horn a few years back?

Again, nothing has been proven. I'm going to presume zimmerman is innocent until he is proven guilty by a jury of his peers. And no I don't remember Joe Horn.

[Capntastic]

Thousands of people get killed in more horrific ways than trayvon, sorry if I don't breakdown and cry for each one.

Do you say that they're all partially to blame because they're "full retards"?


Edit:   REMINDER:  At this point your argument, Kilroy, is that it's not worth getting upset about because it hasn't been proved in a court that he killed anyone.  The whole reason people are upset about this issue is that he hasn't been arrested and there hasn't been a trial.  You're saying people shouldn't get concerned about something that won't happen if people aren't concerned about it.  You either need to realize that this vigilante killing is something that does need to be looked into, and thus is something worth being upset about.

[Cthulhu]

This may (Innocent until proven guilty) be an unprovoked murder by a guy with a concealed carry permit, using legal self defense.  It calls the nature and validity of those laws into question.

If the circumstances are what we believe them to be, it's very much a special case

[fqllve]

Again, nothing has been proven. I'm going to presume zimmerman is innocent until he is proven guilty by a jury of his peers. And no I don't remember Joe Horn.

What do you mean nothing has been proven? It's proven that Zimmerman was following Martin based on the 911 call. He claims to have stopped, but he was at one point since the dispatcher asks if Zimmerman is following Martin and Zimmerman says he is. It is also proven, by Zimmerman's own admission, that he shot and killed Trayvon Martin. Those two facts make this a vigilante killing. It could not be more clear. Whether or not Martin is guilty of assault or Zimmerman guilty of murder isn't, but it was obviously a vigilante killing.

[PTTG??]

I didn't realize Zimmerman was a Cuban. It all makes sense now- those Cubans have a thing for racial profiling.

The copyright thing is, I believe, an attempt to prevent others from marketing things with that slogan, not an attempt to market them themselves.

And while I firmly believe in sticking to the demands of constitutionality, you'd expect someone who confessed to shooting someone else to death under nearly any circumstances, let alone when they pursued them against explicit orders, to be arrested for at least a night...

[Kilroy the Grand]

This may (Innocent until proven guilty) be an unprovoked murder by a guy with a concealed carry permit, using legal self defense.  It calls the nature and validity of those laws into question.

If the circumstances are what we believe them to be, it's very much a special case

Blame the guy, not the gun.

Again, nothing has been proven. I'm going to presume zimmerman is innocent until he is proven guilty by a jury of his peers. And no I don't remember Joe Horn.

What do you mean nothing has been proven? It's proven that Zimmerman was following Martin based on the 911 call. He claims to have stopped, but he was at one point since the dispatcher asks if Zimmerman is following Martin and Zimmerman says he is. It is also proven, by Zimmerman's own admission, that he shot and killed Trayvon Martin. Those two facts make this a vigilante killing. It could not be more clear. Whether or not Martin is guilty of assault or Zimmerman guilty of murder isn't, but it was obviously a vigilante killing.

What I meant was that it hasn't been proven that he murdered trayvon, and I'm all for zimmerman being put on trial. I think all of you are taking my comments a bit to seriously.

[Truean]

....

Given, all alleged criminal actors are presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. We can never, in any case, know what happened unless we were right there seeing it. Traditionally, self defense is an affirmative defense that defendant must prove in court. Florida's "Stand your ground" law breaks tradition and makes it so the police can't arrest until they prove a negative: that self defense wasn't used. Thus, there will probably never be a trial, defendant will never prove self defense and the state will never prove lack of it. So really, it's giving the guy a free pass until and unless the police can prove a negative, which should never be the case.

This "Stand your Ground," law leaves too many unanswered questions about a minor's corpse.

Facts.

This is, at heart, why most people are mad about this. Whether or not the guy acted in self defense, he doesn't have to prove it and is by default given the benefit of the doubt. There is a simple principle at work here: "When you take a human life, you should have to explain it formally." <-- This principle isn't being followed here.

[Capntastic]

Anyone who thinks you should be able to trail a kid against police orders, confront them, pick a fight, pull a gun, shoot them and kill them, and walk away no questions asked is wrong.  If you don't think there needs to be an investigation, you are wrong.  If you don't think this issue is important enough to care about, and that bringing attention to something that came about from a mixture of lax gun laws, murderously aggressive tendencies in protecting property, racial profiling, etc, you are wrong.

PTTG you should wonder why Kilroy brought up the copyright thing as if to say "they're just in it for the money", to somehow discredit people who care about this.  Kilroy's whole stance is a contrarian platform of apathy.

[GlyphGryph]

What I meant was that it hasn't been proven that he murdered trayvon

He killed an unarmed kid. That is literally as proven as you're ever going to get considering the number of sources.

Also, I find you "Blame the guy not the gun" followed by "don't blame the guy" to be absolutely hilariously awful.

[Kilroy the Grand]

Anyone who thinks you should be able to trail a kid against police orders, confront them, pick a fight, pull a gun, shoot them and kill them, and walk away no questions asked is wrong.  If you don't think there needs to be an investigation, you are wrong.

It's a good thing I think zimmerman should be given a fair trail then.

  If you don't think this issue is important enough to care about, and that bringing attention to something that came about from a mixture of lax gun laws, murderously aggressive tendencies in protecting property, racial profiling, etc, you are wrong.

Don't blame the guns, everyone loves to blame the guns.

PTTG you should wonder why Kilroy brought up the copyright thing as if to say "they're just in it for the money", to somehow discredit people who care about this.  Kilroy's whole stance is a contrarian platform of apathy.

Yeah, I think they'll try and make a quick buck off it, "discredit people"? I wouldn't go that far.. you're pretty correct of the "platform of apathy" part. I'll just blame the "contrarian" part of the vicodin.

What I meant was that it hasn't been proven that he murdered trayvon

He killed an unarmed kid. That is literally as proven as you're ever going to get considering the number of sources.

Also, I find you "Blame the guy not the gun" followed by "don't blame the guy" to be absolutely hilariously awful.

Look you know what I mean't about the gun, the gun is just an object. And glyph you can kill someone and have not murdered them. I'm not saying zimmerman didn't kill trayvon, I'm saying it's not proven that he murdered him.

[Sheb]

Kilroy, the point people are upset is that Zimmerman probably didn't murder Trayvon. That is, he killed the boy, but under Florida's stupid laws, killing an innocent isn't murder if you claim he's been threatening you, even if it's proven you've been trailing him. Zimmerman won't be proven to be a murderer, and that's the whole point.

[Reelya]

Anyone who thinks you should be able to trail a kid against police orders, confront them, pick a fight, pull a gun, shoot them and kill them, and walk away no questions asked is wrong.  If you don't think there needs to be an investigation, you are wrong.

It's a good thing I think zimmerman should be given a fair trail then.

I think you're missing the point that it's the fact that they let him walk without any sort of criminal investigation which has people worked up. If they'd done a proper investigation in the first place, nobody'd have heard of Trayvon or Zimmerman.

They drug tested Martin but not his killer at the crime scene, that suggests an automatic bias. Do we normally take the surviving person's word that he was acting in self-defense? The dead person can't give their side of the story. Is it wise to start a precedent where saying you were standing your ground is an automatic license to kill ?

As I understand it, "Stand Your Ground" requires you to prove you used proportional force, i.e. if you kill someone you had to believe you would be killed if you did not act. You can't shoot someone under that law if they throw a punch or something. Getting "roughed up" isn't an excuse to murder.

Also the 'Gangsta' pictures which have been circulating of Martin have been proven to be fakes. Even right-wing blogs are conceding this.

[DJ]

As I said before, both of them went full retard, neither of them backed down, and a kid got shot.

The killer chased after him. If that doesn't count as the kid backing down, what in nine hells does?

Anyway, seeing how this guy isn't getting prosecuted, I guess the boy's family will just have to shoot him dead in self defence.

[scriver]

Now, that would be an interesting case. A black guy shortcuts through the gated community, runs into Zimmerman and, understandably feeling threatened as Z-man has killed black people for next to no reason before, shoots him dead. What would happen then?

[Leafsnail]

Blame the guy, not the gun.

It's not even necessarily the gun that was the problem here.  It's the horrible, horrible law associated with the gun that effectively legalises vigilante murder, and goes way beyond mere "lax gun laws".  Just saying "it's the guy's fault" is true but unhelpful - it's the law's fault that he's getting away with it, and that's also a problem.