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[Owlbread]

I have been searching the suggestions board as much as I could to see if this had been suggested before, but it has only been briefly mentioned as a small idea once or twice in threads that deal with rather different issues (e.g. a 40d era thread talking about how champions were too easy to get). I have thought about it for a bit and decided that it's best if I just make an actual thread dedicated to this idea.

I was inspired by The Winter King series by Bernard Cornwell, which includes stories of the various ancient British kingdoms having "champions" that could be used to fight another kingdom's champion to solve a dispute without war. It then occurred to me that this could be applied quite well in Dwarf Fortress.

For example, imagine if your international relations have become strained somewhat with an Elven nation near your fortress over their cannibalism and your passion for oak mugs menacing with spikes of teak. This has led to open war, resulting in heavy casualties on both sides. Your diplomat discusses the dispute with the Elven diplomat; they agree that your champion and the Elven champion should both fight to the death in a location of their choosing, which turns out to be woodland. The champions fight long and hard; the elf dancing from tree to tree with his bow and your dwarf hacking through the trunks with his axe to destroy the elf's hiding places. They fight for days. Eventually, the elf is overwhelmed and beheaded, but not before the dwarf is shot with a poisoned arrow. Their bodies are sent home upon their shields and the dispute is solved; no more innocent blood must be spilled. This event will go down in history and will be the stuff of songs and legends for years to come.

You see, right now Champions are more like glorified drill sergeants in that only really instruct dwarves. If champions were meant to be drill instructors, why not just call them instructors? "Champion" doesn't seem right for a soldier like that. This suggestion is just one way in which champions could actually do a job involving "championing" your fortress.

[NTJedi]

I think this would be a good idea for players who reach the larger size civilizations because it's a more civilized decision as compared to the deaths of hundreds of thousands.  Allowing this for only larger civilizations makes it a more of a desired easter egg feature and provides reason to achieve the larger civlization statuses.

[Iapetus]

I think this would be a good idea for players who reach the larger size civilizations because it's a more civilized decision as compared to the deaths of hundreds of thousands.  Allowing this for only larger civilizations makes it a more of a desired easter egg feature and provides reason to achieve the larger civlization statuses.

I'm not sure about that.

I think historically, settling conflicts by a duel between champions tended to be something very small communities did (where your "army" comprised "every able-bodied man in your village", and a bad defeat could easily mean the extinction of your culture.

Once you get to very large civilizations, you have thousands of peons that you don't know personally (or their families), and who could cause trouble if they stayed at home, so sending them off to war is a win-win scenario (win, and you get land and plunder.  Lose, and your rid of some smelly peasents you never cared about in the first place).

[NW_Kohaku]

David and Goliath is a story of dueling champions. 

It was very common in the ancient world (more specifically, the middle-east region around biblical times), where it was believed that the Gods determined who would be the victor of the fights.  (Which is why that's supposed to be a big important story - it showed the Jewish God was stronger/"realer" than the Philistine's god.)

As Iapetus said, these were generally a bunch of small city-states, and they really couldn't afford the losses.

In real-life ancient warfare, there were often negotiations that occurred before any battle, as a last-ditch attempt to broker some sort of cease-fire, or else negotiate the terms of engagement.  This might include agreeing to a duel of champions, and the agreement on what penalties the loser would pay/what the victor would gain.

Vae Victis.

[Iapetus]

David and Goliath is a story of dueling champions. 

It was very common in the ancient world (more specifically, the middle-east region around biblical times)

I think it was also common among the Celts and similar barbarians.  And the Ancient Greeks (especially the ancient Ancient Greeks, as in Trojan War era).

[Owlbread]

David and Goliath is a story of dueling champions. 

It was very common in the ancient world (more specifically, the middle-east region around biblical times), where it was believed that the Gods determined who would be the victor of the fights.  (Which is why that's supposed to be a big important story - it showed the Jewish God was stronger/"realer" than the Philistine's god.)

As Iapetus said, these were generally a bunch of small city-states, and they really couldn't afford the losses.

In real-life ancient warfare, there were often negotiations that occurred before any battle, as a last-ditch attempt to broker some sort of cease-fire, or else negotiate the terms of engagement.  This might include agreeing to a duel of champions, and the agreement on what penalties the loser would pay/what the victor would gain.

Vae Victis.

That's a great idea! Why not include that in the game? Before a battle you can attempt to broker some sort of cease fire (or indeed negotiate the terms of engagement as you say) through a duel of the champions of both armies. There must be more uses for the champion.

[gamermaster42]

The most logical course of action would be as follows:
1. Get into an argument with another civilization
2. Have an agreement to have your champions duke it out.
3. Set up traps that would plant the victory firmly in your champions court
4. Kill the enemy champion
5. Declare war on the other civilization anyways now that they're demoralized.
6. Profit!

[katana]

Do people even realize that, the chances are, our champions will win using a wooden training weapon? I've never seen a legendary enemy soldier, and at least for me, I've got legendary +80 troops in one fort. Sure the enemy will train, but we'll probably be absurdly more powerful and may even handicap ourselves for fun.

[Owlbread]

The most logical course of action would be as follows:
1. Get into an argument with another civilization
2. Have an agreement to have your champions duke it out.
3. Set up traps that would plant the victory firmly in your champions court
4. Kill the enemy champion
5. Declare war on the other civilization anyways now that they're demoralized.
6. Profit!

You see, what could happen is if the enemy champion is killed by your traps in a court that was unfairly balanced in your favour, then other civilisations will refuse to engage in a duel with you. That idea needs work though, because what if your champions fight on an old battlefield and by chance step on one of your old traps from days gone by? There must be a way around it though. I don't like the idea of people getting boxed into a reputation because of a mistake (if it is a mistake). Perhaps there are ways to restore your civilisation's honour, like taking part in an expedition into the circus for treasure to be shared among your neighbouring civilisations or something.

Do people even realize that, the chances are, our champions will win using a wooden training weapon? I've never seen a legendary enemy soldier, and at least for me, I've got legendary +80 troops in one fort. Sure the enemy will train, but we'll probably be absurdly more powerful and may even handicap ourselves for fun.

Good point. However, I don't see why we couldn't implement a feature that would mean AI champions train like nobody's business. Those that will be spawned in worldgen will already be legendary. Even if we may seem absurdly more powerful, there must be a way to keep AI champions close to our level. Of course, you don't want every single AI champion to be completely legendary in all of his skills with godlike attributes; the whole point is that some champions are weaker than others. Perhaps smaller or younger civilisations can have weaker champions; the largest civilisation has the best chance of getting a good champion because it has the most people.

[peskyninja]

I like any suggestion about alternative ways of wining wars/battles.
Maybe some civs should take a small group of other civs members to show them their military might, IIRC Darius I did that. Or they should spread rumors about how their rule will make that city/state/whatever prosper.(Freeing slaves, no state religion.....) and cause revolt.

[AleAndSteel]

i like that idea!
Why not let the Civilizations build an Arena for fights such as this? You wouldn't have to worry about traps^^
You can choose to observe the fight, always having some sort of skip-button, which calculates the fight instantly and tells you who won.

Generally, i want to see some arena action^^ Where are the deathmatches between 2 elfs, that fight for their life while a magma sea pours into the arena and war dogs are set loose?

[Owlbread]

i like that idea!
Why not let the Civilizations build an Arena for fights such as this? You wouldn't have to worry about traps^^
You can choose to observe the fight, always having some sort of skip-button, which calculates the fight instantly and tells you who won.

Generally, i want to see some arena action^^ Where are the deathmatches between 2 elfs, that fight for their life while a magma sea pours into the arena and war dogs are set loose?

That's another great idea. Arenas are perfect for this, and it ties in nicely with everyone's love of abusing prisoners of war.

[NTJedi]

Dominions_3 had a great idea with an  Arena Death Match  where each nation had the option of sending one champion to compete for a prize.  Unfortunately it was poorly implemented by the developers in the game because the computer opponents would all send their gods resulting with lots of dead gods and the prize was more of a curse then something treasured.  If implemented correctly within Dwarven Fortress it would be lots of fun (dual meaning).