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Author Topic: Super Powers and Ethics: Beware the Superman  (Read 3914 times)

Felius

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Super Powers and Ethics: Beware the Superman
« on: March 20, 2012, 05:18:53 pm »

There's an issue that's rarely explored in fiction (with some notable exceptions) in the responsible use of the super powers, specially when those super power are in the world shattering scale. While there are already issues with the legitimacy of super powered vigilantism at the lower ends of the scale (say, spider man level of power), things start to get really complicated when one start going on the scale that could actually change the world, regardless of the world's wishes. What right do you have to interfere with society X because they are doing something ethically unacceptable? How can you possibly let go on if you have the possibility of stopping it easily? What right does one have to force his ethical point of view on others?

To expand on this point, here's a hypothetical example of an extreme case. For some random case, our protagonist gets effectively limitless powers. Squaring the circle, dividing per 0, etc. remain impossible for him. The same way, while he could make the entirety of Earth nice, friendly and loving to his fellow human being, he can't do that while keeping them the same persons they were before. He can't do the self contradictory. He can't change the past, although he can change the world so it's identical to what would be if the past were different. He is well intentioned, and want to as good as he possibly can with his new found powers. There's no power that can possibly oppose to him, on any level. No person nor any nation, nor the whole earth unified against him, if he so decides.

Consider North Korea. Could he go in remove all their weapons, depose the 1984 style government they have today, and guarantee everyone is safe, well fed, and so on, they like it or not? In fact, do he have a responsibility to do so? Should he make sure no one is victimized around the world by their own government? Does he have a responsibility to make sure no atrocities are committed, or would it be anti-ethical for him to interfere in a country and culture that did not chose him, and does not want him to interfere? Should he make sure the governments of the so called western democracies does not trample over the individual rights of certain groups? Make sure that everyone is protected, even if it runs over the democratic representative system in these countries? In fact, must he, institute himself as a supreme leader of the world, in practice, if not in name (if he intercedes to overrule in cases he find ethically unacceptable, he does in fact runs over their authority and autonomy, and it's really inaccurate to call him the final authority, even if effectively delegates most of the day to day running of the world), or would it be ethically wrong, even if it in fact, did solve pretty much all of the world issues and abuses?

One could say something like this could go horribly wrong, but say he could guarantee things would go exactly as he desired, not terribly misfire in his face? If it were you, would you go ahead and create an ideal world? Even considering that it'd force your morality over everyone else? If it were someone else with the power, would it be ok for him to force his morality on you? Is it ok to trample over the autonomy and right of self determination of every individual and society in the world? Or do one have the responsibility to prevent evil in the best they possibly can?

The only thing I know is that I'm very happy we don't have a Dr. Manhattan or Superman power scale entity in the real world, since the only situation which I would find acceptable would be if it the entity were me, followed the same ethical guidelines that I do, at least on the major points, or were completely non interventionist (I suppose if the entity were petty, selfish and didn't do anything on absurd scale, it might be somewhat tolerable). But what are your takes on the issue?

P.S. Yes, I am aware of the parallels with certain theological and certain international relations and law debates. I'm not interested in investigating them in particular, specially the first, since it's the kind of debate that tends to go badly. I'm going to ask to please to avoid going into it, and above all, please do not go into specifics if you really must do so to make a point.
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kaijyuu

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Re: Super Powers and Ethics: Beware the Superman
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2012, 05:23:37 pm »

Rarely explored? Does the phrase "with great power comes great responsibility" ring any bells?


Misuse of powers is the go-to plot when superhero writers are out of ideas (not that these plots are in any way bad; some of them are damn awesome).
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Quote from: Chesterton
For, in order that men should resist injustice, something more is necessary than that they should think injustice unpleasant. They must think injustice absurd; above all, they must think it startling. They must retain the violence of a virgin astonishment. When the pessimist looks at any infamy, it is to him, after all, only a repetition of the infamy of existence. But the optimist sees injustice as something discordant and unexpected, and it stings him into action.

Felius

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Re: Super Powers and Ethics: Beware the Superman
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2012, 05:29:24 pm »

Rarely explored? Does the phrase "with great power comes great responsibility" ring any bells?


Misuse of powers is the go-to plot when superhero writers are out of ideas (not that these plots are in any way bad; some of them are damn awesome).

Oh, but the point is what "great responsibility" means. Does he have the responsibility to act against evil, against the autonomy of others? Do he have the responsibility to insure societies can auto determine? That individual rights are not trampled upon?

It's not about misuse, but about what is the right use of the power, and if there even is a right use at all.
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Re: Super Powers and Ethics: Beware the Superman
« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2012, 05:35:04 pm »

People people, what we should be asking is if Superman lieks teh internets.

Levi

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Re: Super Powers and Ethics: Beware the Superman
« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2012, 05:43:54 pm »

This is why if you have one god-powered individual, you should try to make as many more god-powered individuals as fast as you can to beat him up if he goes evil.  :)

One ubermench is scary.  100 ubermench is cool.

This is sort of explored in a few comics.  In the series "Invincible" there is one super hero on earth who was more powerful than any other on the planet.  He turns out to be only defending earth so that his alien empire can take it over later.   :P

Edit:
Oh, also this sort of happens in a parallel universe to the justice league in one tv episode.  In this universe the justice league decides it would be easier to just take control of everything themselves and they end up making a creepy Orwellian feeling world.

Edit 2:
If I because utterly invincible and had superpowers I'd probably throw a lot of people into the sun.  :)
« Last Edit: March 20, 2012, 05:53:22 pm by Levi »
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Neonivek

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Re: Super Powers and Ethics: Beware the Superman
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2012, 05:50:13 pm »

Well there are also several Superman comics where Superman has taken over the earth.

Dr. Doom has taken over the earth several times...

Also your forgetting Dr. Felius that even a Super being cannot create his/her ideal world. Simply using force destroys that.
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Frumple

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Re: Super Powers and Ethics: Beware the Superman
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2012, 05:55:23 pm »

I typed more than I needed to, then looking over it realized I could stop rambling and cut it down to something much smaller.

Two points for the OP, re: Hypothetical Omnicritter!

One: Autonomy and self-determination doesn't extend to the destruction of those around you (i.e. evil*); the prevention of evil does not limit those qualities. An omnipotent/omniscient entity** can prevent all evil without interfering with those two.

Two: You probably want to look at this. The answer to the question of "Does the entity have responsibility to prevent evil?" is "Only if it wants to be good." There is a moral burden on those who can (without negative consequence), to do; for an omnipotent and omniscient entity to allow evil necessarily means that entity is not good***. That doesn't mean it's evil, per se, just not good. A entity that is either not omnipotent or not omniscient -- or both -- gets a bit more leeway.

I think your big question, OP, is "What is evil?" more than anything else, though. You seem to be making the assumption that the prevention of evil necessarily involves trampling over the rights and morality of others. There's very robust concepts of evil that wouldn't have that issue. Without that problem, most of your objections seem empty.

*Or at least one of the major aspects of my currently preferred definition of evil, anyway :P
**Your hypothetical omnicritter, at least on the scale of a single world.
***One of the reasons the whole "Problem of Evil" thing is a major theological issue, heh.
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lemon10

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Re: Super Powers and Ethics: Beware the Superman
« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2012, 06:03:05 pm »

Personally, if someone had those powers (eg. near omnipotence, near omniscence), I think it would be morally wrong not do anything.
If you can: A) stop suffering and B) be assured that it will work out, then it would be immoral not to do anything.
Obviously the exact extent to which you interfere would be very hard to determine and would depend on how powerful your intellect and precognition are, but assuming that you are as powerful as it is inferred in your OP, then I think that at least a massive overhaul of the earths economic and political systems would be necessary (since you can obviously make everything work so much better if you were near-omniscient).

Direct intervention would probably be rarely necessary after you shut down the directly oppressive regimes (eg. shutting down north korea without using force would be super hard, but after you opened up the government a little bit everything would get much easier), everything after that could be accomplished with large scale social engineering and manipulation of politicians and other powerful public figures.
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kaijyuu

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Re: Super Powers and Ethics: Beware the Superman
« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2012, 06:04:08 pm »

Superman explains why he's responsible with his superpowers.

Only tangentially related but I wanted an excuse to link it~
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Quote from: Chesterton
For, in order that men should resist injustice, something more is necessary than that they should think injustice unpleasant. They must think injustice absurd; above all, they must think it startling. They must retain the violence of a virgin astonishment. When the pessimist looks at any infamy, it is to him, after all, only a repetition of the infamy of existence. But the optimist sees injustice as something discordant and unexpected, and it stings him into action.

scriver

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Re: Super Powers and Ethics: Beware the Superman
« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2012, 06:11:34 pm »

In my mind, the freedom to hurt others is a worthless freedom. If a near omnipotent power had the ability to create a true utopia, then not doing so would be immoral, even it it would mean limiting peoples choice to only "do good" without their consent.
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kaijyuu

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Re: Super Powers and Ethics: Beware the Superman
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2012, 06:21:51 pm »

Thing is, there's no such thing as a "true" utopia. Even if there was, you are imperfect; you will not be 100% responsible with your power, so you'd need a counterbalance to keep you in check.


I don't care how righteous and responsible one thinks they are, it is incredibly presumptuous to believe one's conception of "good" is ubiquitous and/or "right." You have a responsibility to not implement your version of a utopia, because without fail it will be someone else's dystopia, and they will not be able to escape from under your iron fist. If that ain't "evil," I dunno what is.
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Quote from: Chesterton
For, in order that men should resist injustice, something more is necessary than that they should think injustice unpleasant. They must think injustice absurd; above all, they must think it startling. They must retain the violence of a virgin astonishment. When the pessimist looks at any infamy, it is to him, after all, only a repetition of the infamy of existence. But the optimist sees injustice as something discordant and unexpected, and it stings him into action.

Felius

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Re: Super Powers and Ethics: Beware the Superman
« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2012, 06:33:25 pm »

I typed more than I needed to, then looking over it realized I could stop rambling and cut it down to something much smaller.

Two points for the OP, re: Hypothetical Omnicritter!

One: Autonomy and self-determination doesn't extend to the destruction of those around you (i.e. evil*); the prevention of evil does not limit those qualities. An omnipotent/omniscient entity** can prevent all evil without interfering with those two.

Two: You probably want to look at this. The answer to the question of "Does the entity have responsibility to prevent evil?" is "Only if it wants to be good." There is a moral burden on those who can (without negative consequence), to do; for an omnipotent and omniscient entity to allow evil necessarily means that entity is not good***. That doesn't mean it's evil, per se, just not good. A entity that is either not omnipotent or not omniscient -- or both -- gets a bit more leeway.

I think your big question, OP, is "What is evil?" more than anything else, though. You seem to be making the assumption that the prevention of evil necessarily involves trampling over the rights and morality of others. There's very robust concepts of evil that wouldn't have that issue. Without that problem, most of your objections seem empty.

*Or at least one of the major aspects of my currently preferred definition of evil, anyway :P
**Your hypothetical omnicritter, at least on the scale of a single world.
***One of the reasons the whole "Problem of Evil" thing is a major theological issue, heh.
I'm more to the side of the international law/anthropological side of the argument than the theological argument. The entity is not completely omnipotent, and certainly not omniscient. It's nearly omnipotent for practical purposes, or at least powerful enough to impose its will unopposed. When you add complete omnipotence and omniscience to the mix, it can simple disregard logic and do two contradictory things at the same time. A less extreme case would be: Does superman have a responsibility to depose the North Korean Regime? What about other tyrannical governments? Should he intervene in societies where he is not wished by its members to do so? Does it have the right to impose his definition of evil over other societies?

Also your forgetting Dr. Felius that even a Super being cannot create his/her ideal world. Simply using force destroys that.
The extreme hypothetical case I used as an example would be able to use power not merely to destroy the current society but to remold as he seems fit, and control it. It'd probably could be in more than place at the same time maybe, or create puppets so it could effectively run an entire government/society if it wished so.
This is why if you have one god-powered individual, you should try to make as many more god-powered individuals as fast as you can to beat him up if he goes evil.  :)

One ubermench is scary.  100 ubermench is cool.
It's not really about what would make the best story, but what are the implications of unopposed super entities.

Quote
This is sort of explored in a few comics.  In the series "Invincible" there is one super hero on earth who was more powerful than any other on the planet.  He turns out to be only defending earth so that his alien empire can take it over later.   :P

Edit:
Oh, also this sort of happens in a parallel universe to the justice league in one tv episode.  In this universe the justice league decides it would be easier to just take control of everything themselves and they end up making a creepy Orwellian feeling world.

Hence the notable exceptions mentioned.

Quote
If I because utterly invincible and had superpowers I'd probably throw a lot of people into the sun.  :)
So, most likely, would I. :P I never claimed that I was very ethical.

Personally, if someone had those powers (eg. near omnipotence, near omniscence), I think it would be morally wrong not do anything.
If you can: A) stop suffering and B) be assured that it will work out, then it would be immoral not to do anything.
Obviously the exact extent to which you interfere would be very hard to determine and would depend on how powerful your intellect and precognition are, but assuming that you are as powerful as it is inferred in your OP, then I think that at least a massive overhaul of the earths economic and political systems would be necessary (since you can obviously make everything work so much better if you were near-omniscient).

Direct intervention would probably be rarely necessary after you shut down the directly oppressive regimes (eg. shutting down north korea without using force would be super hard, but after you opened up the government a little bit everything would get much easier), everything after that could be accomplished with large scale social engineering and manipulation of politicians and other powerful public figures.
In my mind, the freedom to hurt others is a worthless freedom. If a near omnipotent power had the ability to create a true utopia, then not doing so would be immoral, even it it would mean limiting peoples choice to only "do good" without their consent.
An interesting exercise here is also to consider both a situation where the entity follows the same guidelines that you do, and one where it does not. When asking if a super being has the right to impose his morality, do put yourself in the shoes of those who are having its morale imposed as well. It's well intentioned, but it follows a human ethical code. It does not have supreme authority to define good and evil, and the society it creates almost certainly will not consider be considered an utopia by everybody, some might consider it the exact opposite.

And again, it's certainly not omniscient. It can change and impose a society, because it's powerful enough to create and keep controlling said society. Or it could change the people, but it'd be effectively brainwashing, even if instant and painless (or the equivalent of a restraining bolt, stopping behavior the entity finds unacceptable, disregarding your wishes)
Thing is, there's no such thing as a "true" utopia. Even if there was, you are imperfect; you will not be 100% responsible with your power, so you'd need a counterbalance to keep you in check.


I don't care how righteous and responsible one thinks they are, it is incredibly presumptuous to believe one's conception of "good" is ubiquitous and/or "right." You have a responsibility to not implement your version of a utopia, because without fail it will be someone else's dystopia, and they will not be able to escape from under your iron fist. If that ain't "evil," I dunno what is.
Yes, but would it be right allow ethically unacceptable actions to happen, you having the power to stop? One should allow evil to happen so to avoid trampling the right of individual and societies?
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Re: Super Powers and Ethics: Beware the Superman
« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2012, 06:46:19 pm »

The roleplaying setting, Progenitor, is the only good superhero setting because it is specifically about a 1950s housewife who suddenly, and for no explainable reason, gets incredible superpowers.  Further, anyone that comes in contact with her powers gets a fraction of them, and on, and on, and on.  The setting is about the propagation of ideas and actions, in many ways.   But the titulat Progenitor, Amanda Sykes, has an arc that takes her from trying to use her powers for 'good', which, to her, is patriotic nationalism and fighting in Vietnam, and only goes further off the rails from there.

It is not a 'good guys' and 'bad guys' setting.  You have people who are normal folk who get powers and try to use them for personal gain, altruism, sheer destruction, to further their own ideology, etc.  You have some purely insanely psychopaths at the higher tiers of power who, due to being soley interested in petty crimes and murders that they have nowhere near the effect on the setting's history as, say, a low tier dude who goes out of his way to promote a specific agenda.

To point this at the topic, the recurring theme is that, given the nature of powers in this setting to spread, even good actions have unintended consequences. 
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kaijyuu

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Re: Super Powers and Ethics: Beware the Superman
« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2012, 06:52:50 pm »

Quote
Yes, but would it be right allow ethically unacceptable actions to happen, you having the power to stop? One should allow evil to happen so to avoid trampling the right of individual and societies?
The problem is it's what you deem ethically unacceptable, whether anyone else agrees or not. It's not necessarily about trampling anyone's rights; it's about thinking one's opinion is the true, universally right one. God complex, much?
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Quote from: Chesterton
For, in order that men should resist injustice, something more is necessary than that they should think injustice unpleasant. They must think injustice absurd; above all, they must think it startling. They must retain the violence of a virgin astonishment. When the pessimist looks at any infamy, it is to him, after all, only a repetition of the infamy of existence. But the optimist sees injustice as something discordant and unexpected, and it stings him into action.

Frumple

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Re: Super Powers and Ethics: Beware the Superman
« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2012, 06:57:42 pm »

Thing is, there's no such thing as a "true" utopia. Even if there was, you are imperfect; you will not be 100% responsible with your power, so you'd need a counterbalance to keep you in check.

I don't care how righteous and responsible one thinks they are, it is incredibly presumptuous to believe one's conception of "good" is ubiquitous and/or "right." You have a responsibility to not implement your version of a utopia, because without fail it will be someone else's dystopia, and they will not be able to escape from under your iron fist. If that ain't "evil," I dunno what is.
Mm, Kaij, that's limited human knowledge being expressed, there. We do have a responsibility to be really frakking careful in trying to implement some sort of utopia, but this limited scale omnibeing can know exactly how to implement a conception of good* without it becoming a dystopia**.

There are, actually, pretty ubiquitous conceptions of right (Usually either some variation of "And it harm none" or "Do unto others;" the major limitations in human cultures is that it runs into our mostly-natural xenophobia and everything buggers right up. Either that or it starts either stepping beyond the former concept or going too far with the latter.) that could be implemented by a omniscient/potent being without things buggering up.

*Limited to stuff like, hey, no <insert sundry list of violent crimes>, no hunger, no long-term environmental destruction, etc.
**Well, except maybe to folks like psychopaths or violent xenophobes, etc., so forth, but I limit myself in considering the worth of those who would internalize the harm of others without sufficient cause as a core behavioral pattern when I'm considering moral issues ;)

I'm more to the side of the international law/anthropological side of the argument than the theological argument. The entity is not completely omnipotent, and certainly not omniscient. It's nearly omnipotent for practical purposes, or at least powerful enough to impose its will unopposed. When you add complete omnipotence and omniscience to the mix, it can simple disregard logic and do two contradictory things at the same time. A less extreme case would be: Does superman have a responsibility to depose the North Korean Regime? What about other tyrannical governments? Should he intervene in societies where he is not wished by its members to do so? Does it have the right to impose his definition of evil over other societies?
Again, it depends on its definition of evil. The entity certainly has the right and responsibility to prevent violence, to stop hunger, etc., as a baseline. For a limited knowledge entity, possible consequence would become an issue and a problem is generated.

But yeah, the specific important point for your omnicritter was
Quote
say he could guarantee things would go exactly as he desired, not terribly misfire in his face?
This entity could prevent all direct harm on the planet without negative consequence. If it is capable of doing that without everything buggering up, yes, it should. It only needs to be sufficiently knowledgeable and potent, in other words.

The right to cause harm without sufficient reason isn't a genuine moral right, I'm afraid. To prevent that from happening doesn't run into any issues, except when that prevention causes other problems.

The question is how far beyond that prevention the entity goes.

Basically what I'm getting at is that stopping stuff like genocide, wars of aggression, government controlled rape camps, etc., so forth, continue your list of atrocities, is a no-brainer. There's not really a moral question there -- if an entity can do so without negative consequence, it must do so to be a moral entity. It may amoral instead of immoral, but morality would require a baseline prevention of insufficiently justified harm.

That doesn't necessarily mean, as per your later example, that Superman should topple the DPRK, but it would mean that he should prevent the situation in the DPRK from harming the people within.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2012, 07:05:05 pm by Frumple »
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