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Ponies should grasp with

Mouth and Horns only
- 35 (42.7%)
Forehooves
- 3 (3.7%)
All of the above
- 44 (53.7%)

Total Members Voted: 82


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Author Topic: My Little Fortress - Fanon is Magic 1.2  (Read 80658 times)

LordRandomness

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Re: My Little Fortress - Fanon is Magic 1.2
« Reply #225 on: July 15, 2012, 12:02:04 am »

So I was digging through the mod files (trying to learn a bit of modding myself) when I found this little gem...

Code: [Select]
[SPHERE_ALIGNMENT:LUST:512]
Care to explain? :p

Detahramet

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Re: My Little Fortress - Fanon is Magic 1.2
« Reply #226 on: July 15, 2012, 09:59:19 am »

Thats just one of the many spheres a diety, or more probable, a demon or megabeast that has gotten enough kills, can have.
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Replica

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Re: My Little Fortress - Fanon is Magic 1.2
« Reply #227 on: July 15, 2012, 12:57:11 pm »

   [PREFSTRING:generosity]
   [PREFSTRING:compassion]
   [PREFSTRING:laughter]
   [PREFSTRING:honesty]
   [PREFSTRING:loyalty]
   [PREFSTRING:friendly nature]
   [PREFSTRING:enticing hindquarters]

The cutie mark file is actually made with a program i threw together a while ago, it's not particularly pretty but it does the job i guess.. It just grabs some variables from a list and pastes all the code in there.

What I'd REALLY like to do with the cutiemarks is what was done in My Little Darkness. The guy added like 200 castes, each with specific skill rates and matching cutie marks, but the amount of work that goes into that kind of thing is quite a bit more than i can set aside for now.

Explains why I found an entry that said "a fruit", that was just... huh?
Not "an apple", it literally said, "a fruit".

Anyway, here is the updated list (spoilered rather than uploaded, couldn't be arsed to upload a 15kb text file right now), you know the drill and all, scroll through them and remove those you don't want to keep or feel are inappropiate, the very last few are just there for added silliness.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

And I was thinking about real utillitarian descriptive cutiemarks (or whatever fancy name the whole thing has), DF has in total 115 skills (including non used skills) and there are three types of pony (alicorns don't count for this).
If the cutiemarks only make a pony better at one skill in DF terms and the cutiemarks are set to appear on ANY pony of ANY type then one would have to create 340 unique castes and 680 "different" variations (caste specific, male/female), which admitedly is quite a bit of work in the end and can clutter DFtherapist a bit on larger forts.
340 castes because I need to create 3 different varations of the same skill (3 pony types) + the skill modifiers of the original caste.

But, well, this is what I am gonna do for the next few days, been meaning to do it for my own version of this mod anyway.
The really important parameter thingies that I need to ask you before I start this grand task though are these (and be absolutely sure as I am 99% sure that I wont do it all again after completion and I can almost guarantee that I will disapear for an undefenite amount of time once I leave this burning rainless hellpit of rome and return to my damn life in 15 days):

Should ALL pony types have castes for skills of ANY kind or should pony types be restricted to their original skillset only?
Should their skill be displayed in their description or should all names and descs be default?
Should ALL skills be used or should I remove combat/social/unused skills?
Should some castes be more frequent than others?
Should there be multiple variations of cutie marks for castes or should there be one per caste only?
Are there any questions you wish to ask or requests?
« Last Edit: July 15, 2012, 01:29:18 pm by Replica »
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Sorcerer

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Re: My Little Fortress - Fanon is Magic 1.2
« Reply #228 on: July 15, 2012, 02:32:42 pm »

An additional problem is the fact that with the way dwarf fortress works right now is that the game picks a set of genes per caste for a dominant, which results in every single member of that caste looking identical, this isn't too bad for dwarves, but when all your male earth ponies are blue with green hair and they all have the same cutiemark, that's when the troubles start.
My solution to this was the caste cloner, that just copies every caste ten times to at least decrease the chance of dupes.

So your assumption of 340 castes is actually quite low, since it means all ponies with the same cutie mark will also have the same skintone and haircolor, so we'd want to add some clones...

Now, on the other hand, not all skills are equally important, and some cutie marks are a lot more vague. What was done in my little darkness was make archetype castes, like a fisherman, with bonuses to a set number of skills, and a limited set of fish related cutiemarks.

The problem here is twofold; defining the archetypes, and actually writing down the damn thing. I tried cleaning up the creature_pony.txt file, and despite the fact that i managed to cut out most of the duplicates, most of the data in the txt file is currently the colors and cutie marks. and clones ofc.

Doing the job isn't particularly HARD, it's just extremely time consuming (at least without writing a program that does it)
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Maklak

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Re: My Little Fortress - Fanon is Magic 1.2
« Reply #229 on: July 15, 2012, 03:35:14 pm »

0) Should ALL pony types have castes for skills of ANY kind or should pony types be restricted to their original skillset only?
1) Should their skill be displayed in their description or should all names and descs be default?
2) Should ALL skills be used or should I remove combat/social/unused skills?
3) Should some castes be more frequent than others?
4) Should there be multiple variations of cutie marks for castes or should there be one per caste only?
5) Are there any questions you wish to ask or requests?


0) I'd make the castes mostly specialised, with pegasai having a bit of everything. Having a unicorn whose special talent is farming or not doesn't make much difference for gameplay, but should considerably cut down on the number of casets. Even with cutie marks, random unicorns should be good at crafting, random EPs good at farming and so on.
1) As long as it is clear from the cutie mark, what a pony's special talent is, I'd keep the "A pony with a spiral horn growing from his / her forehead."
2) I'd say "no" and even merge special talents in some skills. It might be mildly amusing to have a pony with a picture of cheese on his ass, but not when you get a couple of them. Mods that have castes generally merge some skills. Alternatively make it so that a special talent in masonry gives minor bonuses to skill learning rate in mining, stonecrafting and engraving. You have skill learning rates and natural skills to play around with, so you could even make two castes of mason, one rare and superior, one more common, but not as good. It should be quite simple to look at the list of skills and see what could synergy with what.
3) I think so, but am at a loss as to what should be more frequent and by how much. In general I'd keep female to male ratio at 2 and the number of alicorns low.
4) I'd go with multiple versions per caste, at least for more frequent ones. You can get an axe, a halberd, a hatchet or something else for an axepony, for example.

------- Stuff --------

Look at each skill and think for a moment, what cutie mark could represent it.

I'd remove some of the things that are on your list of cutie marks. For example "A fan." There are no fans or fan-related skills... unless milling or mechanics fits.

Royal ponies: just clone the castes ten times to get some variety and multiply the frequency of other castes accordingly.

Don't make penalties to learning rates worse than x0.8 and bonuses greater than x2.0 and + 5 to natural skill. Special talents or not, some ponies are going to end up with available jobs, not what they want to do.
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LordRandomness

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Re: My Little Fortress - Fanon is Magic 1.2
« Reply #230 on: July 15, 2012, 05:34:26 pm »

Thats just one of the many spheres a diety, or more probable, a demon or megabeast that has gotten enough kills, can have.

Oh, I know. I left out the context: that particular sphere string is a preference for a deity. It is located in the pony civ entity. :p

Sorcerer

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Re: My Little Fortress - Fanon is Magic 1.2
« Reply #231 on: July 15, 2012, 06:25:21 pm »

So, here's an experiment!
I figure most of the time consuming bit for the cutie mark thing is to actually input all of the data sooooo
Crowdsource Time!

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AiUmy1Q_PZQ8dHZGU3RhUDVwNlB2WUwybEpsX3ozeHc

I figure even with the time it takes to sanitize the input I'd still save time over having to actually brain these myself..
Should be open for anyone to edit, the idea is you add an archetype, some example cutie marks for that archetype, and then bonuses and penalties, different castes are on different pages,  some archetypes (say a fluttershyesque animal friend) could work for multiple castes, just copy those to the respective castes.

Anyone is free to add whatever they want, and we'll see how this idea pans out XD
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Replica

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Re: My Little Fortress - Fanon is Magic 1.2
« Reply #232 on: July 15, 2012, 09:48:09 pm »

So that is why there were multiple clones.
Damn, DF y u so tricky.
I am still going to do this though, I am determined and psyked and everything and bored.
I got time to spare so I can deal with this without problem (ca 15 days to be exact), I just need instruction on how you want the thing built, for all intents and purpouses, I AM the program for the job.

Today then, is planning day, helps if you check in every now and then to give a quick response, I reckon the faster we get this done the better.

The archetype idea/concept is good, great actually, saves me from having to deal with Concentration/Strand Extractor/Various crap.

I do have a question on this genetic diversity thing though, I noticed that every caste has its own descriptor entry, and they are all identical, right?
If DF is programmed to end up with one dominant gene, say, your blue and green earth ponies with uh... a pineapple (called annanas in the list because I am stupid and named it after its european name) cutiemark, doesn't it only affect that one caste based on the descriptor entry?
What I mean is, if I were to share that entry with an unicorn caste and 9 other male earth pony castes would THEY be affected by the dominant gene or would they randomize their own genes due to them being different castes?
Like, what is the need for having 10 identical color descriptors jamming half the creature file?

I am thinking that if I do dupe the same caste 10 times, I'd be able to use the same caste stats entry AND the descriptor entry for all 10 castes and still get the same results rather than creating 10 castes and 10 descriptor color entries like it currently is, it would save a shitload of space.
Would this work?



1) As long as it is clear from the cutie mark, what a pony's special talent is, I'd keep the "A pony with a spiral horn growing from his / her forehead."
3) I think so, but am at a loss as to what should be more frequent and by how much. In general I'd keep female to male ratio at 2 and the number of alicorns low.

------- Stuff --------

Royal ponies: just clone the castes ten times to get some variety and multiply the frequency of other castes accordingly.

Don't make penalties to learning rates worse than x0.8 and bonuses greater than x2.0 and + 5 to natural skill. Special talents or not, some ponies are going to end up with available jobs, not what they want to do.

1) That is the problem, some cutiemarks don't exactly make the pony's skill obvious, some skills have more obvious marks while others are more complicated to describe in the form of a fancy little symbol plastered on the flanks and on larger forts where migrations can have massive numbers it may be a bit tedious to manually check everyone and then try and figure out what their true skill is based on "a bent metal pipe", "a snake skin", etc. Hence why I ask.
3) Current ratio is at 7500, per caste, the total ratio should be 225.001.
I THINK that ratios work this way, "X amount of Y's per TOTAL RATIO" so alicorn ratio of 1 would mean "1 alicorn per 225k units" and castes go "7500 Unicorn 3 per 225k units" (female caste ratio numbers are higher than male ratios though).
The ratio numbers can be incredibly low or very high and still function exactly the same... I THINK.

What IS a royal pony archetype? Aside from being an all male caste.
Bonus in all combat skills?
Likes_fighting?
??

That is another thing, should ponies have natural skills based on their mark or just skill gain bonuses? (ie Pie Makers with permanent minimum of Novice/Talented in cooking)

Edit:

I managed to set up and organize everything without problems, with the "Replace X with Y" function of notepad this is actually going to be a lot easier than I thought and take way less time than predicted.

All I need now is archetypes to implement, I added a couple to the google doc but eh, it's not really my kind of job.
So far the applebucker, weatherpony, pie maker and bowyer are in and working with their own marks and all. 20 castes each.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2012, 02:30:49 am by Replica »
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I don't know about unicorns, but back in .95, one of my PA soldiers was diagnosed with power armor. I drew a fairly good picture about it, but my science project (a bunny) pissed all over it.
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Maklak

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Re: My Little Fortress - Fanon is Magic 1.2
« Reply #233 on: July 16, 2012, 04:25:48 am »

Quote
What IS a royal pony archetype? Aside from being an all male caste.
Bonus in all combat skills?
Likes_fighting?

By "royal ponies" I meant alicorns. As it stands, they combine the best qualities of all castes, both in stats and in skill learning rates. I would keep it that way, but don't go as far as dominating all specialised castes in everything. Let's face it: they are going to end up as squad captains anyway, because they are the best soldiers apart from spider ponies. For cutie marks I'd give them little to no bonuses on top of being alicorns, with pictures of sun, moon, stars, comets and other celestial bodies. (Pun unintended.)

Alternatively, alicorns could be similar to Steel Dwarves from Gneisis mod:
"Steel dwarves are rarely born, and usually to a family which was blessed by a deity. They take longer to mature (adult at 16, not 12), but they always become great heroes and strong leaders. Nobody saw a sick steel dwarf either, it looks like they just ignore any disease they encounter. Their bodies emanate power, and even the deepest wounds regenerate quite quickly."

Have a look at Masterwork mod castes: (But I would prefer CMs to give smaller bonuses and no penalties below learning_rate *=0.8. That way players can ignore CMs if they want to. )
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Personally I'd have most cutie marks give at least 2 (Adequate) in at least one skill.

This is "My Little Darkness" Mod. It added a lot of castes with skills. I haven't played it, but have a look, it already did some of the work for you.
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Replica

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Re: My Little Fortress - Fanon is Magic 1.2
« Reply #234 on: July 16, 2012, 05:19:25 am »

Mod seems pretty good, I'd love to try it but I've had my bad experiences with mixing grim-grimdark with MLP (there were cannibals and...).
I checked his creature_pony file and it looks he built his cutiemark caste system more or less how I am building and planning mine right now, good to know that I am on the right track.

I'll type up an alicorn archetype later, cull out some of the more class inapropiate colors and such, they aren't showing up at all like Sorcerer seemed to have planned for, the alicorn princess he added is limited to a maximum of 1 per civ entity, I can't gen millenia long worlds on this comp but in theory a new alicorn should be born after the previous one gets slain.
So I'll leave that caste as it is and create this type of nobles, which will have penalties in all general skills, bonus gains in leadership/social/military skills and be fairly rare-rare'ish.
I may add "permanent blank flanked" and "want-it-need-it" ponies of all three types (but I haven't decided on what to give them), there will also be a liar pony with a massive multiplier in lying... These will also be fairly rare.

Currently I haven't added (or planned) any penalties to normal castes, default castes only go as low as x0.8 skill multiplier penalty (affected skills are seen in readme in the OP), cutiemarks add at most up to a max x2 skill multiplier (or I fear that it'd be too easy).


The archetypes that are ingame now are Sorcerers applebucker and pie maker + the few I added earlier.

Returning to sleep for a few hours while awaiting Sorcerers pending aproval/angle on this.
Feel free to add some archetypes of your own in the meanwhile...
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I don't know about unicorns, but back in .95, one of my PA soldiers was diagnosed with power armor. I drew a fairly good picture about it, but my science project (a bunny) pissed all over it.
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Sorcerer

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Re: My Little Fortress - Fanon is Magic 1.2
« Reply #235 on: July 16, 2012, 05:23:43 am »

alicorns can still show up in fortress mode (should be something like one in a couple of thousand) but there is always one "princess" alicorn that serves as your monarch.
I initially hoped for alicorns to be manufactured rather than born, by virtue of a god-"curse" or secret, but since the curses are all negative right now, they could only become alicorns if they defiled altars or experimented with undeath.. seemed a bit off XD
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Maklak

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Re: My Little Fortress - Fanon is Magic 1.2
« Reply #236 on: July 16, 2012, 07:18:59 am »

Personally I dislike the idea of a "princess". The story goes that Lauren Faust wanted a queen, but Hasbro said "Queens are evil, princesses are good", so Celestia is a princess. Personally I'd strongly prefer "nornal" noble and royalty hierarchy, with king, queen and so on.

While you are editing castes, make Alicorn MAXAGE something like 3000:10000. I like the idea of them living for a very long time. When you adjust the birthrates, keep in mind that having an alicorn or three per fortress would be fun.

Community game Dawnpick had some great names for ponies. Maybe you can 'reverse-engineer' some ideas from those names. (Look at first post, some ponies were renamed.) I also include Dwarf Therapist dumps of labour assignments and skills for those ponies for reference.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Well, I don't mind 'wacky' castes much as long as they are rare.

I'm against giving penalties to alicorns. They should be great at whatever they do. If you want nobles with penalties, use unicorns instead. That said, we only ever need two nobles anyway: The doctor and the baron / broker / bookkeeper / manager.

For your 'permanent blank flank', Dawnpick had a pony named "Generic" who did a little bit of everything :P

Red Eye has some interesting things to say about cutie marks. It is a very worthwhile read before you implement them.

If you want to change caste descriptions, they could include suggestions for names, based on cutie marks. For example "Halberd treats the safety of other ponies very seriously and has a natural talent with slashing weapons." That said, I still prefer cutie marks with clear meaning and generic "A pony with a strong bond with nature." Not having high penalties for other skills is a 'safety mechanism' in that even if you assign sub-optimal ponies to some tasks, they will still do them reasonably well.

Reconsider at least some castes having natural skill at something. 2 (Adequate) to 5 (Proficient) in one or a few related skills is reasonable.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2012, 07:29:36 am by Maklak »
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Sorcerer

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Re: My Little Fortress - Fanon is Magic 1.2
« Reply #237 on: July 16, 2012, 07:54:35 am »

Alicorns live for about a thousand years
Ponies live on average between 90 and 120 depending on caste
I guess with folks like granny smith being at least a few hundred years old (founder of ponyville, which has centuries of history) I guess that may have to change, but I kinda prefer having migrants be between 20-40 years old.. perhaps a bit antropomorphic timescale wise, but outside a few obviously elderly ponies, most seem to be young adults
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Replica

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Re: My Little Fortress - Fanon is Magic 1.2
« Reply #238 on: July 16, 2012, 02:35:41 pm »

I've genned quite a few worlds and I have never seen a world gen more than a single alicorn (the princess) at a time for their civ.
Legends viewer lists all castes and all named creatures of an entity, right?
Bam, no more than one alicorn at a time, not for me.

If pop ratio really is calculated the way I think it is "X CASTE per TOTAL POP RATIO" then it really isn't possible using the current alicorn pop ratio for more than 1 alicorn princess to show up per civ at a time.
If one were to increase the number to 2...3..4...100 pop ratio however it would be possible for additional alicorns to spawn but not guaranteed.
Then I could be wrong, maybe you really had alicorns show up in your game, I never had so I wouldn't really know for sure.

Remember that the last value in maxage is how long a creature can live AFTER their "expiration date", they the poor pegasi with their comaparively short lifespans could very well die the same year after their expiration day at 75 years, or live all the way up to 120 (their current max), it is THOUGHT that the longer they age after their expiration date the more likely they are to die, so I supose unicorns that die at age 200 are rare and few.
But you already knew that, so whatever.

Wanted to tell you guys that I have designed the system to be easily modified by whoever, the creature_pony_NEW and descriptor_color_cutiemark files even have their own index for easy navigation and everything, its pretty awesome and much less of a pain in the ass to find what you need.
Power of customization to everyone, yay.



And okay Maklak, taken into consideration.
RedEye had some weird shit, completely off for this kind of pony mod, but great for what I am doing on my own by the side.
I am not going to include "names" in the description, I am doing
PONY TYPE DESCRIPTION + He/She is a talented/born/skilled/variation ARCHETYPE NAME.
"A pony with beautiful wings. She is a talented weatherpony."
You don't actually see the caste name unless you are using DFtherapist or legends viewer so...
But like I mentioned, I am creating the system in a way that it is easy to find and modify what you want if you don't like something about something. :)

Back to work for poor old Replica.
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I don't know about unicorns, but back in .95, one of my PA soldiers was diagnosed with power armor. I drew a fairly good picture about it, but my science project (a bunny) pissed all over it.
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Replica

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Re: My Little Fortress - Fanon is Magic 1.2
« Reply #239 on: July 16, 2012, 03:41:42 pm »

Sorcerer, I am asking again.
It is important because I am crossing a deep pool of murky water using kiddy size rubber boots and a raincoat made of newspaper.

What is the catch of using the same color descriptor for all 10 castes of one archetype?

This is the format that I am using.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

As you can see all 10 castes are set to use the same color descriptor entry as opposed to each caste having their own duplicate color descriptor like you did.

Is there something I should know about this or will it count differently for all castes?
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I don't know about unicorns, but back in .95, one of my PA soldiers was diagnosed with power armor. I drew a fairly good picture about it, but my science project (a bunny) pissed all over it.
Fallout: Equestria - Index of Stable Reports x Fallout: Equestria - Orange
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