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Author Topic: When Kickstarter goes wrong?  (Read 678616 times)

Drakale

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Re: When Kickstarter goes wrong?
« Reply #2550 on: February 28, 2014, 01:39:42 pm »

Heh, good one had not seen it before.

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If you would like a refund, please contact a fan of my work directly for your money. This is where the money would come from anyway. I am cutting out the middle man.

This man is a genius.
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Graknorke

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Re: When Kickstarter goes wrong?
« Reply #2551 on: February 28, 2014, 01:58:38 pm »

So how did the whole magic quantum foam infinite energy device turn out?
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Putnam

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Re: When Kickstarter goes wrong?
« Reply #2552 on: February 28, 2014, 02:15:24 pm »

That answer is equally answered by the answer to the question "Are you currently living in a utopian post-scarcity society where faster than light travel is commonplace and there is no war or hunger?".

Draco18s

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Re: When Kickstarter goes wrong?
« Reply #2553 on: February 28, 2014, 02:15:43 pm »

I love how 90% of that giant post has nothing to do with what went wrong and what he's doing.

So how did the whole magic quantum foam infinite energy device turn out?

Check
http://hopegirl2012.wordpress.com/

And no, that really is their URL.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2014, 02:18:01 pm by Draco18s »
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LeoLeonardoIII

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Re: When Kickstarter goes wrong?
« Reply #2554 on: February 28, 2014, 02:58:44 pm »

I think the Pictures For Sad Children meltdown counts: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/73258510/sad-pictures-for-children/posts/759318

Is there really no discussion thread for that debacle?
John Campbell is hilarious. I choose to not care about John Campbell's meltdown, because caring about John Campbell's meltdown is not money, and all I care about in the whole world is money. Moneymoneymoneymoneymoney.

If someone emails him asking for a refund but a mailer daemon flubs it and delivers the message twice, will he burn two books instead of one?
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Sensei

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Re: When Kickstarter goes wrong?
« Reply #2555 on: February 28, 2014, 03:08:55 pm »

I think the Pictures For Sad Children meltdown counts: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/73258510/sad-pictures-for-children/posts/759318

Is there really no discussion thread for that debacle?
Well, I read his inane crazy post. Clearly he's having some kind of nervous breakdown. Is there any back story to this or...?
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LeoLeonardoIII

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Re: When Kickstarter goes wrong?
« Reply #2556 on: February 28, 2014, 04:15:31 pm »

From reading it, and from having read some PFSD comics back in the day, I can suggest this hypothesis:

He was born into wealth.
He has wealthy friends, which is partly just because you're in the right social circles and people like to be friends with others who are on the same socioeconomic level so disparity of wealth isn't a barrier.
He doesn't personally have wealth. This suggests his immediate family wasn't terribly wealthy, perhaps they experienced a decline around the time he was a lad.
He went to Dartmouth, with annual undergraduate tuition of $43k in the 2012-13 school year. A community college typically costs about $2.5k - $3.5k and an undergraduate program at a state school around $6k - $13k. From this we can infer that he had some financial assistance available beyond student loans (which he mentions working to pay off).
He takes / took antidepressants. This suggests a significant emotional and/or behavioral issue, but it could be overprotective parents wanting to throw a pill at their normal kid to make him stop causing problems. Because he continued taking them as an adult, we can be charitable and assume he needed them.
At some point he began to alienate from his social circle. Perhaps this was linked to his economic decline. He mentions people offering him loans, financial advice, networking, etc. Clearly there were still people who considered him a friend despite any alienation.
He seems concerned with authenticity. He also seems enamored with the idea that he can see through the bullshit of our society and few other people do. He considers that supposed talent / trait worthwhile.

I'm on the fence as to whether he considers himself a crusader for the poor, possibly counting himself among them, attempting to increase equality. Or whether he just doesn't want to deal with money and would like an option where he does things and lives and eats without participating in the rat race and checkbook balancing of "work for paycheck and pay money for rent and food."

His language is similar to that of Harold Skimpole of Dickens' Bleak House, a wastrel living off the goodwill of wealthy friends who consider his eccentricities charming. Yet Campbell clearly understands what money is worth, and that he can enter a 7-11 and exchange a dollar for a candy bar. The clerk won't accept just a dime for the candy bar, nor will he expect $750 for it.

He clearly doesn't want an economic relationship where he makes comics and people give him money, but if he doesn't make comics they don't give him money. He also doesn't want a relationship where someone hands him money and expects that he will hand them back a book. It sounds like he wants to be supported and be able to do whatever he wants with no expectations placed upon him.

This is different from patronage, which would be one way of getting what he wants, because patrons tend to expect you to produce something. The patronage relationship is somewhat similar to a gift economy, wherein the most powerful person is the one able to give the best gifts, and where accepting gifts beyond what you can return lowers your social standing. The patronized artist is kept alive and working, but it is known that he is supported by the patron. The works of the artist are in some way aggrandizing for the patron, and that detracts somewhat from the prestige of the artist. A meager artist won't add much prestige to the patron, so he cannot get a patronage, although he actually gains prestige from being associated with the patron in addition to the income. And a strong artist will lose much more prestige than the patron would gain, so the patron courts him, but the artist will try to be self-sufficient if he possibly can.

Anyway, despite his meandering talk of money being pointless and how human relationships are what matter, I 100% doubt that Campbell would enter into a true patronage relationship because it would quash his ego. He believes at this point that he's a strong artist.

So, as he says, it will be interesting to see what happens. His landlord can surely kick him out, but if his landlord is a real shitter maybe he has Campbell's stuff thrown out into the street and beat the shit out of him if he fights back. That's how the real world works.

People with their heads in the clouds get stubbed toes.
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kaijyuu

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Re: When Kickstarter goes wrong?
« Reply #2557 on: February 28, 2014, 04:20:56 pm »

If your analysis is correct Leo, I agree with the dude on a lot of points but perhaps am a bit less naive. It'd be great if we could separate ourselves from all the bullshit and just live, but alas, the world is shit in that way.
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Quote from: Chesterton
For, in order that men should resist injustice, something more is necessary than that they should think injustice unpleasant. They must think injustice absurd; above all, they must think it startling. They must retain the violence of a virgin astonishment. When the pessimist looks at any infamy, it is to him, after all, only a repetition of the infamy of existence. But the optimist sees injustice as something discordant and unexpected, and it stings him into action.

freeformschooler

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Re: When Kickstarter goes wrong?
« Reply #2558 on: February 28, 2014, 04:27:26 pm »

Who the fuck cares what John Campbell thinks? It's hilarious. He got you. He got you to debate on those terms ("This is what this man is or isn't, let me use his talking about his life inappropriately as an excuse to talk about his life inappropriately").

Pictures for sad children is an (intermittently) funny comic. If you paid money for it on kickstarter and he delivered, good. If he didn't deliver, that's bad, and you should talk about that. This pretentious psycho-analysis where you lower yourself to John Campbell's pathetic level (discussion primarily about identity and motive rather than primarily about action) does nothing but encourage the same behavior.

In fact, a lot of this thread is that: discussion about the creator identities ("look how stupid this person is!") rather than the things themselves. I remember that Guild MMO where everyone got so distracted by his lottery story that it eventually overtook discussion of how stupid the thing itself was. If you want to have a thread about that, great, but that's not where Kickstarter and Kickstarters goes/go wrong. That's Where Stupid People Asking For Money Goes Wrong. Notice the difference.

The unabomber used that exact same trick by writing his manifesto. Instead of simply being "oh that guy blew up x people and that's bad," it became, "well, that's terrible, but he had some good points..."
« Last Edit: February 28, 2014, 04:33:23 pm by freeformschooler »
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kaijyuu

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Re: When Kickstarter goes wrong?
« Reply #2559 on: February 28, 2014, 04:37:47 pm »

Are you saying we shouldn't ask why people do bad things?
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Quote from: Chesterton
For, in order that men should resist injustice, something more is necessary than that they should think injustice unpleasant. They must think injustice absurd; above all, they must think it startling. They must retain the violence of a virgin astonishment. When the pessimist looks at any infamy, it is to him, after all, only a repetition of the infamy of existence. But the optimist sees injustice as something discordant and unexpected, and it stings him into action.

freeformschooler

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Re: When Kickstarter goes wrong?
« Reply #2560 on: February 28, 2014, 04:40:58 pm »

Are you saying we shouldn't ask why people do bad things?

That shouldn't be the focus, no. The focus should be on the actual bad things themselves. On average, though, it is not.

Instead of asking, "what character qualities/backstory caused this to happen," ask "what actions do we need to take to prevent this?" The two are linked but distinct. One is more powerful a question than the other.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2014, 04:43:02 pm by freeformschooler »
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kaijyuu

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Re: When Kickstarter goes wrong?
« Reply #2561 on: February 28, 2014, 04:44:51 pm »

Knowing what causes someone to do X is required to know what actions are necessary to prevent X. Unless, of course, you limit your options solely to using deterrents, which is pretty stupid.
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Quote from: Chesterton
For, in order that men should resist injustice, something more is necessary than that they should think injustice unpleasant. They must think injustice absurd; above all, they must think it startling. They must retain the violence of a virgin astonishment. When the pessimist looks at any infamy, it is to him, after all, only a repetition of the infamy of existence. But the optimist sees injustice as something discordant and unexpected, and it stings him into action.

freeformschooler

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Re: When Kickstarter goes wrong?
« Reply #2562 on: February 28, 2014, 04:54:34 pm »

Knowing what causes someone to do X is required to know what actions are necessary to prevent X. Unless, of course, you limit your options solely to using deterrents, which is pretty stupid.

I agree. I even said they were linked. Last post. However, that is not what I am arguing. I am arguing that the discussion should primarily be around action rather than identity. Not solely - you need to see some personality patterns to determine who's a con and who's not - but primarily. That's not what's happening.

How would you prevent something the PFSC thing from happening next time? It's an obvious exploit of the system if you can simply change your mind on delivering the product (whatever that product may be). There's some discussion regarding whether kickstarter is a good will donation or an investment - do you expect to get some final product - and occasionally a legally binding contract for creators has been discussed. However, I've already contacted kickstarted about this, and they said no. Probably the only course of action for forcing the hand of creators would be either some better way to contact them directly (just look how the Cult guy disappeared off the face of the Earth for a long time, it seems like a bad idea if KS authors can stay that anonymous - what's preventing someone like that from resurfacing under a completely different identity and asking for money again?) or a petition to change KS' rules itself.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2014, 04:56:27 pm by freeformschooler »
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kaijyuu

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Re: When Kickstarter goes wrong?
« Reply #2563 on: February 28, 2014, 05:09:11 pm »

Ah okay, I get what you're trying to say then.


I've got no problem with Kickstarter's methods, though I do have to say to every backer: buyer beware.

Real investors invest knowing they're taking risks. Yes, they have contracts to ensure the person actually tries to do what they pitched, but in the end they get what they get.

Ultimately I feel the problem with people taking money and running will be mostly solved by more backer skepticism in the future. Pitchers already include evidence that they have the capacity to do what they're claiming, and I can only see them doing this even more. Meanwhile random joes with little prior experience will be met with even more raised eyebrows when they show their idea.

I don't see any watertight fix to the problem being practical.
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Quote from: Chesterton
For, in order that men should resist injustice, something more is necessary than that they should think injustice unpleasant. They must think injustice absurd; above all, they must think it startling. They must retain the violence of a virgin astonishment. When the pessimist looks at any infamy, it is to him, after all, only a repetition of the infamy of existence. But the optimist sees injustice as something discordant and unexpected, and it stings him into action.

MrWiggles

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Re: When Kickstarter goes wrong?
« Reply #2564 on: February 28, 2014, 07:09:03 pm »

Crowd-souring is just a donation. Thats all it can be. If you want to be a venture capaltist, then go join a group of small time VCers that collectively invest in stuff.


And you can't ever reasonably require that a product to be delivered complete. There a multitude of ways to fail, then there are to ways succeed.

Scams, are going to be part of Crowd Sourcing, tu the fact that it can be gamed, is nto reason enough to disallow crowd sourcing.

The Donators have personal agency and personal responsibility.
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