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[Draco18s]

Also, the prizes for donating can't be the REASON for donating. The reason is "to make product X". Otherwise, I'll just make a Kickstarter project called "Get T-Shirts for $15" without any actual startup happening.

None of PA's rewards include said "Product X" which I believe we harped on before.

Hence asking "is there some arbitrary value which gets me 'the project'?" and the answer being "no."

[forsaken1111]

Exactly. The kickstarter is there so that they can pay their server bill. Not to make additional content.

They wish to be paid without having ads, so they kickstarter. If they are paid an absurd amount, they may also make some comics.

[Sergius]

Also, the prizes for donating can't be the REASON for donating. The reason is "to make product X". Otherwise, I'll just make a Kickstarter project called "Get T-Shirts for $15" without any actual startup happening.

None of PA's rewards include said "Product X" which I believe we harped on before.

Hence asking "is there some arbitrary value which gets me 'the project'?" and the answer being "no."

That was my point, maybe "t-shirts" wasn't the right choice (since they could be the product). What I meant to say is, I could just create a project called "some people get to feel good about giving me money, and those who give a lot get to have dinner with me/whatever". That's not a project.

The donation also apparently has no obligation to give you the project (some Kickstarts are just a project that is going to be sold to people, including the donors). But there HAS to be a project. "Remove ads" is not, IMO, a project. They can remove ads for free, it costs no work, they just will stop receiving the money from them. It's also a temporary situation, since "replace income X with some donation" doesn't work unless the donation is ongoing (and Kickstarters have an end).

In my opinion, there are 2 kinds of Kickstarts: something that will make the owner money APART FROM THE CROWDFUNDING (so it's somehow self-sustaining), or something that won't (in which case it has to be something specific, like "create 1000 unique watches", whose cost is going to be covered entirely by the crowdfunding [assuming not a single copy of product X is sold later]). "Remove ads" is neither, because eventually you're going to need money again, so either you put them back N time later, or just make a second "stop me from adding ads back" Kickstarter?

[Draco18s]

That was my point, maybe "t-shirts" wasn't the right choice (since they could be the product). What I meant to say is, I could just create a project called "some people get to feel good about giving me money, and those who give a lot get to have dinner with me/whatever". That's not a project.

I was agreeing with you.
T-shirts tend to be an add-on that is "above and beyond" the "product x."  But yes, a project could be "t-shirts."  PA's project is not "t-shirts."

(some Kickstarts are just a project that is going to be sold to people, including the donors)

While true, they've at least got a tangible "product x" when they are done that is salable.  Also, I haven't seen one like this that was successful yet.  But I will admit to not looking very hard.

or just make a second "stop me from adding ads back" Kickstarter?

See their FAQ :|

Is this indefinite / what happens after a year / are you going to ask again?

This is for a period of 1 year. From January 1, 2013 to December 31, 2013. We will run the fundraiser again, around this time next year.

[forsaken1111]

Kickstarter is not a business model. Running an annual kickstarter to pay your server costs is skeevy in the extreme.

[Rose]

Weather or not this goes against kickstarter's rules, either in letter or spirit, I don't know, but I do know why it's better for them to go for kickstarter rather than take donations themselves.

They don't know yet if they will get enough. They know how much it takes to run the server. If they were to switch to donations only, rather than ad revenue, there's a very big risk that they won't get enough donations and they'll be boned.

With kickstarter, it's safer. If they get enough donations to run the site for a year, they get the donations and they turn off adverts. If they don't, then they stay with adverts, and nobody gets ripped off from donating money and finding the adverts still there because there wasn't enough donations to keep it going.

[nenjin]

I can't help but think even the name of the site is at direct odds with what they're doing.

What is anyone "kickstarting" here? NOTHING. PA is old and venerable and isn't "starting" anything except freedom from advertisers....for however long $250,000k pays their bandwidth costs. Which I can't imagine will be all that long.

[Zangi]

Eh, way I see it, they could have done their donation/fund drive themselves on their own webpage... but... they probably don't have a model like Kickstarter to collect the money later, once and if they reach their goal within X date or whatever

If Kickstarter has no problem with it, then great, whatever, I ain't putting money in it anyways.

[Rez]

It's just crowd sourced venture investment.  It kickstarts ideas and companies that aren't deemed good enough or reputable enough to receive investment from more formal sources.  No particular reason you can't use the same avenue to obtain investment for other 'projects'.  I don't really see how it's skeevy.  The way they're doing it is a bit strange, but it's just asking for people to pay for the site directly, rather than indirectly through ad revenue.

I don't really know why a consumer of PA's news and comics would see significant value in removing 1 ad (which is what the goal will achieve), but it's not my role to tell them they can't pay for Penny Arcade Plus.  As someone pointed out, PA doesn't have the infrastructure set up to allow kickstarters convenience with ventures that could fail to acquire the necessary capital, so kickstarter is a way for them to guarantee to their investors/consumers that they won't get ripped off.  The odd part about it is just the PA has enough reputation that they can probably afford to bank on it and fund raise without kickstarter.

[Draco18s]

It's just crowd sourced venture investment.  It kickstarts ideas and companies that aren't deemed good enough or reputable enough to receive investment from more formal sources.  No particular reason you can't use the same avenue to obtain investment for other 'projects'.  I don't really see how it's skeevy.

Underlined the important phraseology here.  Penny Arcade is good/reputable enough to get investment from "other" sources.

Such as implementing a paid subscription service.  Pay your $25/year and get no ads (just like Deviant Art).  Which is essentially what they're doing.

[Zangi]

It's just crowd sourced venture investment.  It kickstarts ideas and companies that aren't deemed good enough or reputable enough to receive investment from more formal sources.  No particular reason you can't use the same avenue to obtain investment for other 'projects'.  I don't really see how it's skeevy.

Underlined the important phraseology here.  Penny Arcade is good/reputable enough to get investment from "other" sources.

Such as implementing a paid subscription service.  Pay your $25/year and get no ads (just like Deviant Art).  Which is essentially what they're doing.

I'm pretty sure penny-arcade doesn't have a log-in system like deviantart...   oh yea, there is ad-block I suppose...

[UltraValican]

It's just crowd sourced venture investment.  It kickstarts ideas and companies that aren't deemed good enough or reputable enough to receive investment from more formal sources.  No particular reason you can't use the same avenue to obtain investment for other 'projects'.  I don't really see how it's skeevy.

Underlined the important phraseology here.  Penny Arcade is good/reputable enough to get investment from "other" sources.

Such as implementing a paid subscription service.  Pay your $25/year and get no ads (just like Deviant Art).  Which is essentially what they're doing.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

And look at Deviant Art, their buisness model is :pay for our site or get infected by a SHITON of viruses/malware.

I agree that PA could host their OWN annual donation. I honestly like the concept of sites being able to remove ads if their fans donate(collectivly), but this honestly doesn't belong on KS.

I'm pretty sure penny-arcade doesn't have a log-in system like deviantart...   oh yea, there is ad-block I suppose...

Don't they have a forum?

[Sergius]

Well, to be fair, they're paying so everyone gets not to see ads.

I don't see anything wrong morally with this. I also think it's great to use a platform that allows "get ALL the money or NONE of it". But I think there's a separate ethical problem, about "why them and nobody else gets to ignore the rules set by Kickstarter itself".

[UltraValican]

Well, to be fair, they're paying so everyone gets not to see ads.

Thats what I like about it. 

[Zangi]

*snip*

I'm pretty sure penny-arcade doesn't have a log-in system like deviantart...   oh yea, there is ad-block I suppose...

Don't they have a forum?

Is it attached to the actual website?  I don't know myself and most game forums have a separate log-in for the website and the forum... (Does deviantart even have a forum?)