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[Akhier the Dragon hearted]

Well the thread title is "When Kickstarter goes wrong" and a scam seems wrong to me.

[kaijyuu]

Indeed. Anyone successfully run off to some country I can't pronounce with briefcases full of money?

[nenjin]

Well, to me an uncovered scam is a fail, so I think there's room for discussion (infantile mocking) of both.

[jester]

I think there are probably easier and less public ways to scam the 50k or so you could possibly get from a kickstarter, thats probably whats holding up the scammers at the moment.  You also have to advertise and fool the internets without people cottoning on but still make it look good enough that people will give you monies.


Ninjaed;   Id say a scam would be kickstarter going wrong, so has a place here, cant sit round bagging yourworld all the time.

[Akhier the Dragon hearted]

   I have to agree that there are a lot of easier ways to scam people of money then kickstarter. To actually get money from a kickstarter you have to have something people want to invest in and not just a little but the full amount you are asking. Trying to get people to donate to some fake cause is easier then this and atleast with a fake cause you can claim non-profit for tax reasons.

[Servant Corps]

Indeed. Anyone successfully run off to some country I can't pronounce with briefcases full of money?

No confirmed scams yet (as opposed to projects that never released anything), but there has been two rather dubious projects:
*The closest you can get to a scam is a Kickstarter for a pilot of the television series called Least I Could Do, based on the webcomic of the same name, by Ryan Sohmer. After receiving $100,000, Ryan decided to use that money to establish a comic store called the 4th Wall instead of producing said pilot. (Even then, one could argue it's not a scam since Ryan did end up spending that money...just not on the thing he originally said he would spend it on.)
*A close second is the ZionEyez kickstarter for glasses, which hasn't produced a product yet and have a lot of angry customers who are beginning to come around to the idea that this is, in fact, a scam. Syndey Morning Hearld has a news story on this. In their favor, though, ZionEyez has reportedly said that they will hand out refunds...though saying and doing are two different things. The ZionEyez Kickstarter raised over $340,000.

[Gantolandon]

I think there are probably easier and less public ways to scam the 50k or so you could possibly get from a kickstarter, thats probably whats holding up the scammers at the moment.  You also have to advertise and fool the internets without people cottoning on but still make it look good enough that people will give you monies.

I don't think this would be too difficult. The only thing you really need to do is... well, basically, something. It would be nice if it has anything to do with your description, which probably was as precise as the one you can usually read on the box of an average game. There doesn't seem to be any way to enforce the promised release date, so you can totally go "Duke Nukem Forever" on people. You're free not to tell people how much this endeavor will cost you or lie about it, because no one will ever check that. I don't think I have to mention required quality of the product (hint: there isn't any).

Actually, it doesn't even seem that Kickstarter gives a shit if the product is actually made.

Who is responsible for fulfilling the promises of a project?

It is the responsibility of the project creator to fulfill the promises of their project. Kickstarter reviews projects to ensure they do not violate the Project Guidelines, however Kickstarter does not investigate a creator's ability to complete their project.

Creators are encouraged to share links to any websites that show work related to the project, or past projects. It's up to them to make the case for their project and their ability to complete it. Because projects are usually funded by the friends, fans, and communities around its creator, there are powerful social forces that keep creators accountable.

A good rule of thumb is to under-promise and over-deliver. Transparency and communication are vital, especially after funding has ended. Creators who provide a good experience for backers will find more success in the future.

If I am unable to complete my project as promised, what should I do?

If you realize that you will be unable to follow through on your project before funding has ended, you are expected to cancel it. If you realize that you will be unable to follow through on your project after it has been successfully funded, you are expected to offer refunds to all your backers.

To avoid problems, don't over-promise when creating your project. If issues arise, communicate immediately, openly, and honestly with your backers.

Edit: I'm not even sure if the promise given on the project page is legally binding. Could you sue someone who failed to deliver the promised content?

[PTTG??]

If they actually did get investments, rather than donations, out of people, Kickstarter would be legally unable to function.

[Sergius]

Or... let the market handle it.

"Moar law" isn't always the solution, and often it's the source of many more problems.

Which is why Somalia is the safest, most prosperous country on earth.

Reductio ad absurdum, also strawman. I never said "no law is the best".

[Draco18s]

Reductio ad absurdum

Thank you.  Every time I've tried to find logical fallacies lately, it's been a list that hasn't included that phrase.

[Leafsnail]

You haven't really provided any reason why the problems we're seeing will fix themselves though.

[Servant Corps]

If they actually did get investments, rather than donations, out of people, Kickstarter would be legally unable to function.

Gambitious is a new Kickstarter-ripoff, with the gimmick that you can invest in Projects instead of donating to them. Based in the Netherlands, and apparently only people within the EU can invest. And yes, investments does mean you can be promised a share of the profits, but since projects can end up failing, you assume all of the risk involved.

So crowdsourcing is evolving, for better or for worse.

[SealyStar]

If they actually did get investments, rather than donations, out of people, Kickstarter would be legally unable to function.

Gambitious is a new Kickstarter-ripoff, with the gimmick that you can invest in Projects instead of donating to them. Based in the Netherlands, and apparently only people within the EU can invest. And yes, investments does mean you can be promised a share of the profits, but since projects can end up failing, you assume all of the risk involved.

So crowdsourcing is evolving, for better or for worse.

Goddamn it! Why EU only? I'd love something like KickStarter, but that actually gave you a useful quid pro your quo.

[Gantolandon]

I read a bit and I wouldn't call it a 'Kickstarter-ripoff". It presents a completely different approach, "the European Way", as I would call it.

The good side is that it eliminates most of the uncertainity. For example, the project must be marketed up to two years after funding. Before submission it needs to be revieved by "professionals in the field". The project description must include such things as estimated schedule, marketing analysis and team composition. Gambitious still isn't responsible for scams, but at least honestly tries to prevent them.

The problem are the hoops you need to jump before being deemed worthy to even submit your idea. For a start, your team must be located in EU. They also need to set up a Dutch limited entity. After that, you need to be able to submit a professionally looking business plan. Or hire someone who does, if you can't speak Legalese.

My feelings are somewhat mixed. As a potential donator (or investor), I prefer the service which cares if the people, who use their site for crowdfunding, are actually able to fulfill their promises. I'd also love to be able to actually participate in profits, rather than just in costs. But if I had a small game studio, I would probably never choose Gambitious. Their main competitor is more popular, doesn't require me to hire a lawyer and lets me just throw some promises and watch people shitting cash.

[Sergius]

You haven't really provided any reason why the problems we're seeing will fix themselves though.

The reason would be that people don't like being ripped off.

Now, HOW they would fix themselves: competition. Another platform will (or already has?) appear that gives you more for your buck than Kickstarter. Then more people will want to move to that platform. Maybe at first the project starters won't want to move there (because they'd have to give back for investments, for example) but they'll realize that more people are willing to give money there, and less and less will want to give to KS (specially if a lot get ripped off somehow).

IF it happens, it'll be because the other system is better.

If it DOESN'T happen, it'll be because the current KS is preferable (maybe people just want to help out because they're selfless? or because they like the author?). Maybe the advantages of that are greater than the disadvantages of the scammers?