Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Aklyon]

Is it really vaporware if you're not-making it on purpose, though?

[nenjin]

I think that's Assholeware.

[MrWiggles]

I think that's Assholeware.

+1
----
What I'm getting out of the Ninja Game, is that they want to larger, maybe more in depth version of their social facebook game, minus the social aspect of it (maybe.)

So I think we're suppose to infere that if we want to know what their ninja game is going to be like then we're going to need to check out their facebook game.

Sorta of a weird incidental (maybe?) advert to play it?
----
Also what's wrong with paying for marketing? Isn't part of the goal of kickstarter is to get funding to make your product so it can be successful?

Marketing is (in part) about making something successful so that the masses at large are aware of your product.

[nenjin]

Also what's wrong with paying for marketing? Isn't part of the goal of kickstarter is to get funding to make your product so it can be successful?

Marketing is (in part) about making something successful so that the masses at large are aware of your product.

To me, that falls into exactly the same trap major publishers set up. Overhead. Consider what Schaffer managed to do with just a video they shot and edited, and word of mouth. That's indie advertising. When someone wants $50,000 to pay a professional PR person to market their game.....that doesn't seem like indie so much as its trading on the indie spirit to pay for things indie gamers could care less about.

[MrWiggles]

Also what's wrong with paying for marketing? Isn't part of the goal of kickstarter is to get funding to make your product so it can be successful?

Marketing is (in part) about making something successful so that the masses at large are aware of your product.

To me, that falls into exactly the same trap major publishers set up. Overhead. Consider what Schaffer managed to do with just a video they shot and edited, and word of mouth. That's indie advertising. When someone wants $50,000 to pay a professional PR person to market their game.....that doesn't seem like indie so much as its trading on the indie spirit to pay for things indie gamers could care less about.

Schaffer shouldn't be looked at as a model to follow/hope for. Order of the Stick and Double Fine success with Kickstarter is anomalous. And word of mouth is extremely unfair way to get your product/service known about. If you want folks to know you exist, you're going to need to do advertisement.

We see indy advertisement a lot on Bay12 itself, even getting developers and project leaders for indy/small games on the forum to advert their products. I dont really see how that's different then hiring a third party to do it for them. They both have their pro's and con's, but more or less achieve a similar thing. Product Awareness and Good Public Face.

And I dont see how wanting to advertise goes against the indy spirit. You do have folks like ToadyOne and ThreeToe which are fine to stay at the level their at, but I dont think most Indy creators would terribly mind to have mild/great success with their products and maybe even make money from them. (Assuming it's the type of product where that can happen.)

Do you really think Notch went, "Oh man, now I'm a millionaire, fuck me."  Or the indy team that made Counter Strike? Or the Indy team that making DotA 2? ~ "Damn it, now I can't make my game because suddenly I have finically fisible future with my creative endeavor."

Or what about the folks that made DropBox? They turned down Apple fairly generous bid to buy them, but they decided to stay their own course and make their product successful on their own (with probably other VC funding.)

I don't really see how being Successful or trying to be successful is against the Indy Spirit.

[Draco18s]

Schaffer shouldn't be looked at as a model to follow/hope for. Order of the Stick and Double Fine success with Kickstarter is anomalous. And word of mouth is extremely unfair way to get your product/service known about. If you want folks to know you exist, you're going to need to do advertisement.

Indeed.  I know how that is, the project I'm involved in didn't take off until Kickstarter featured us in their weekly newsletter.

24 hours -> $11,000 (of a $4000 goal).

[Megaman]

There's an 'indie spirit'? As far as I understand being overly-proud of being 'indie' makes your a pretentious douchebag.

[Lord Dullard]

Schaffer shouldn't be looked at as a model to follow/hope for. Order of the Stick and Double Fine success with Kickstarter is anomalous. And word of mouth is extremely unfair way to get your product/service known about. If you want folks to know you exist, you're going to need to do advertisement.

Indeed.  I know how that is, the project I'm involved in didn't take off until Kickstarter featured us in their weekly newsletter.

24 hours -> $11,000 (of a $4000 goal).

I had a prior Kickstarter campaigner comment something to that effect on Cult's dev-blog. Basically it was 'Kickstarter sucks, guys like you and me have no hope, the only projects that get anywhere are the ones they feature'. My initial thought was well, with that great attitude it's a wonder you weren't wildly successful, but I suspect he had a point (despite the fact that I checked out his project and found it to be rather poorly realized and somewhat uninteresting). It's part of the reason I'm hoping to get at least a bit of exposure built up prior to the campaign, just in case Kickstarter decides my chances are too poor to bother with helping me out.

[Draco18s]

I had a prior Kickstarter campaigner comment something to that effect on Cult's dev-blog. Basically it was 'Kickstarter sucks, guys like you and me have no hope, the only projects that get anywhere are the ones they feature'. My initial thought was well, with that great attitude it's a wonder you weren't wildly successful, but I suspect he had a point (despite the fact that I checked out his project and found it to be rather poorly realized and somewhat uninteresting). It's part of the reason I'm hoping to get at least a bit of exposure built up prior to the campaign, just in case Kickstarter decides my chances are too poor to bother with helping me out.

BoardGameGeek was all pretentious with the "you're not offering physical copies up front, you're going to fail."

I got to come back later with a passive aggressive "We made our goal and then some!  As of this post we're at 171% and rocketing upwards!  We're offering physical copies now!"  As a subtle nose-snubbing.

[nenjin]

We see indy advertisement a lot on Bay12 itself, even getting developers and project leaders for indy/small games on the forum to advert their products. I dont really see how that's different then hiring a third party to do it for them. They both have their pro's and con's, but more or less achieve a similar thing. Product Awareness and Good Public Face.

Yeah, indie devs here type up a forum post. That's different than paying someone several thousand dollars to spam the internet, call journalists, make videos and add to your overhead by doing so.

You can get public awareness very easily without those methods. And in a way that's more in keeping with indie development.

And word of mouth is extremely unfair way to get your product/service known about.

Unfair? In what way? It's arguably THE MOST fair because it's completely about the idea and not about how much money you have to launch a blitz media campaign.

And I dont see how wanting to advertise goes against the indy spirit. You do have folks like ToadyOne and ThreeToe which are fine to stay at the level their at, but I dont think most Indy creators would terribly mind to have mild/great success with their products and maybe even make money from them. (Assuming it's the type of product where that can happen.)

If Toady started taking 10% of his monthly earnings to pay an ad agency to run Dwarf Fortress ads, yes, that would change the nature of the beast for me. This is quickly becoming to me "professional devs who are used to making games in the AAA publisher market" versus "damn near every other indie dev who isn't worrying about marketing or supporting a 15-man team." When people start crowdsourcing out their overhead, rather than trying to crowd source support for their idea, that's when I think it's taking advantage of the promise of indie games.

Or the Indy team that making DotA 2?

You mean the DoTA2 that's bought and paid for by Valve Corp?

There's an 'indie spirit'? As far as I understand being overly-proud of being 'indie' makes your a pretentious douchebag.

Sort of like being a one-line commenter makes you a douchebag? I mean as long as we're implying things about each other....

I have no issues with people trying to be successful. I have many issues with how they try to be successful (and that includes some indie devs who have posted in these very forums), particularly when they're asking gamers to foot the bill for overhead and maintaining they're not pulling the same stunts in the AAA market that people are sick of.

[Zangi]

Schaffer shouldn't be looked at as a model to follow/hope for. Order of the Stick and Double Fine success with Kickstarter is anomalous. And word of mouth is extremely unfair way to get your product/service known about. If you want folks to know you exist, you're going to need to do advertisement.

Indeed.  I know how that is, the project I'm involved in didn't take off until Kickstarter featured us in their weekly newsletter.

24 hours -> $11,000 (of a $4000 goal).

What is your kickstarter project anyways?

[nenjin]

Collectible card game IIRC. I think he made a thread for it over in OG.

[Zangi]

Ah.. the CCG part may have been why I totally skipped it.

Was looking for a thread posted by Draco18s... other then the Drawception one.  Didn't see any in the last 5 pages/February.

[Draco18s]

Ah.. the CCG part may have been why I totally skipped it.

Was looking for a thread posted by Draco18s... other then the Drawception one.  Didn't see any in the last 5 pages/February.

Try this thread.

It's not a collectible card game.  It's a card game the same way Race for the Galaxy is a card game.
(I.e. a board game that uses only cards)

[Servant Corps]

Yeah, indie devs here type up a forum post. That's different than paying someone several thousand dollars to spam the internet, call journalists, make videos and add to your overhead by doing so.

Not particularly. It's still advertising. And indie devs' ads can be just as annoying as "professional" game developers...probably even more so if the indie dev advertise a game that I don't particularly care about.

Time is money, so if you're wasting time spamming the internet, calling journalists, and making videos, it's the same as you paying money for someone else to do so.

When people start crowdsourcing out their overhead, rather than trying to crowd source support for their idea, that's when I think it's taking advantage of the promise of indie games.

There is no promise of indie games. Indie games are just about "independence" for the game developer, to be allowed to do what he wants, not what the "community" wants. If Today wants to set aside 10% of his donated income, then he is still being indie, because he's the one deciding what to do with HIS money. Now, if someone told Toady to set aside 10% of his donated income, then he's no longer indie; he's taking orders. Even a multi-million-dollar private individual is still an indie developer, but the minute he goes public and becomes accountable to shareholders and a CEO, then he has "sold out" and became non-indie.

Also, I find the idea of begging money to other people to fund your idea to be incredibly exploitative to the consumer, no matter if you're crowdsourcing overhead or 'support' or whatever. Because the consumer has no accountability over the process; all he really gets is just sweet-sounding words and smiles from a indie developer (who is probably just as greedy and cynical as his non-indie counterparts). If anything, I want the crowdsource of ideas and programming, you know, crowdsource the actual game, as opposed to just throwing money at a developer who's free to spend it as he please.