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[Nil Eyeglazed]

"Too many dwarves" is part of the whole DF thing.  I wouldn't say not to adjust pop cap (I'm playing at 80 now), but if you've never played with 200 semi-idlers, I'd say you're kind of missing out on the experience.  Fewer dwarves is really easier-- but then, so is playing without invasions.

[telamon]

I'm actually with lolcats, i much prefer having a very low dwarf cap - around 20-30. The problem with migrants is that the vast majority are unskilled and there's no efficient way to train them, and then the other problem is that even if they are skilled there are only so many industries to commit them to. I usually just let a few migrants get good at the professions that I didn't bring with me (cloth, crafting of other materials than stone, etc) and then establish a small military (4-10), and the rest are haulers. I don't like having crazy hauler-worker ratios because too many of the dwarves go into idle mode; anything above maybe 3:2 is a problem for my fort because I hate seeing those wretched idler counts going up.

Unfortunately as a result, I find it really difficult to make use of more than around 20 dwarves; the industry system of the game doesn't really grow vertically (ie it doesn't become more and more advanced) beyond the first 10-15 skilled tradesdwarves. I can typically get my forges going as soon as I strike ore which is really just a matter of mining speed; and metal is pretty much the highest tier of industry that DF has. After that, any new dwarves that you add to the skilled worker pool are just doing more of the same stuff you're already doing which is only useful if you let more people join the fortress population which only extrapolates the problem. Vicious cycle much. Usually once I get my entire system going, my stocks of stuff will grow over the years and when that happens a few years in a row, I know it's time to go into megaproject mode (game is beginning to stagnate and the fortress is becoming over-stabilized). only then do I start accepting more dwarves, just to serve as construction slaves.

I do regret though that these low caps prevent me from enjoying a lot of the game's bigger features. Can't really get any interesting nobles or megabeasts at only 20 dwarves. Next time I gen a world, I'll reduce the attack timings to a population of around 30 or 40, so I start getting invaded as soon as I let my fortress expand beyond the comfort zone.

[Count Crosby]

I like playing with large populations, my current fort has 300 dwarves. All the migrants are really useful as stone detailers/masons, of which I have 150 (they aren't allowed to work in workshops until they are skilled). It's nice to see entire z levels of stone smoothed in a matter of minutes, as far as difficulty is concerned considering how broken farming is feeding the dwarves isn't difficult and the extra dwarves can be used in zerg rushes at the enemy while my vampire black-box is sealed away.

[krenshala]

A cap of 48 was giving me a relatively consistent 55 to 65 dwarves through immigration.  I'm tempted to leave the default cap for my next fort (when I get time to start it), however, just to see how I do now that I've learned more about keeping them alive better.

[GoldenShadow]

Currently at about 5 years into my Fort. Pop cap is set to 20, but my current pop is around 60-ish, 25 adults and 35 children. No deaths so far. but I did lose one child to a kidnapper. I saw him, and unpaused the game and issued the kill order. I shouldn't have unpaused the game. He escaped off the map before the axelords could catch him. I have 2 Axelords fully trained and equipped with masterwork steel armor and battleaxes, they haven't even been wounded and have destroyed dozens of ambushes. I am currently training up 2 markdwarfs. I give them hammer training until they are 15+5 in hammer, fighter and shield. Then switch them to crossbows. They will eventually be be deadly at range and melee. I got lucky and had my armosmith get a mood in the first year. So my armor is really good. My next project is to figure out a way to mine all this admantine in the magma sea. Something involving floodgates and pumps should do the trick!

[GhostDwemer]

Year 257, seven years in, population 224, FPS 25. 120 military dwarves, 30 of which are legendary. After I manage to get every single adult into a militia, I'm gonna celebrate by throwing a big party, you know, with clowns. And no spike traps or cave ins.

[zehive]

i had bad fps to start out with, so i don't really care about how many dorfs I have, I go through about a year, year and a half a day

[Malarauko]

I will say this about large numbers of dwarves. If you assign everyone bedrooms like I do it is a big thing getting enough space and also assigning all the beds.

[nenjin]

Which is why I prefer working with around 20 to 30 dwarves to build the fortress before I unleash the pop cap. Migrants create their own logistical demands and I find that, while I have less haulers, I also need less everything else. So I can actually have some reserves for when I do allow migrants in.

[schismatise]

I'm actually with lolcats, i much prefer having a very low dwarf cap - around 20-30. The problem with migrants is that the vast majority are unskilled and there's no efficient way to train them, and then the other problem is that even if they are skilled there are only so many industries to commit them to. I usually just let a few migrants get good at the professions that I didn't bring with me (cloth, crafting of other materials than stone, etc) and then establish a small military (4-10), and the rest are haulers. I don't like having crazy hauler-worker ratios because too many of the dwarves go into idle mode; anything above maybe 3:2 is a problem for my fort because I hate seeing those wretched idler counts going up.

Unfortunately as a result, I find it really difficult to make use of more than around 20 dwarves; the industry system of the game doesn't really grow vertically (ie it doesn't become more and more advanced) beyond the first 10-15 skilled tradesdwarves. I can typically get my forges going as soon as I strike ore which is really just a matter of mining speed; and metal is pretty much the highest tier of industry that DF has. After that, any new dwarves that you add to the skilled worker pool are just doing more of the same stuff you're already doing which is only useful if you let more people join the fortress population which only extrapolates the problem. Vicious cycle much. Usually once I get my entire system going, my stocks of stuff will grow over the years and when that happens a few years in a row, I know it's time to go into megaproject mode (game is beginning to stagnate and the fortress is becoming over-stabilized). only then do I start accepting more dwarves, just to serve as construction slaves.

I do regret though that these low caps prevent me from enjoying a lot of the game's bigger features. Can't really get any interesting nobles or megabeasts at only 20 dwarves. Next time I gen a world, I'll reduce the attack timings to a population of around 30 or 40, so I start getting invaded as soon as I let my fortress expand beyond the comfort zone.

You are, of course, entitled to your own opinion, but i thought i might throw my 2urists at you; My last fort (abandoned last night due to a demon infestation ruining my fps even more than it was already) looked something like this:

Total pop: ~170

Profession:          Number:          Average level of relevant skills:               Jobs:

Farmers                  8                    8                                                  growing/brewing/cooking
Farmhands              8                    8                                                  all farming except brewing/cooking
Craftdwarves           6                   10                                                 wood/stone/leather/bone crafting
Smelters                 6                   15                                                 furnace operating
Metalworkers           3                    9                                                  weapon/armor/metal/blacksmithing
Stoneworkers           7                   10                                                 mining/masonry/engraving
Woodworkers           3                    8                                                  carpentry/woodcutting

That was with about 60 haulers, 30 marksdwarves and 4 axelords, and a few other random things (children, mostly). I maintained <10 idlers for that entire fort. My point being, industry definitely does scale, and when you have a large fort, it's quite easy to have a large number of workers, all of which level up to legendary in at least something they're doing within 3-10 years. There's plenty to be done with so many dwarves to satisfy, especially when you're being attacked every other season.

In terms of the most efficient way to train them, it might seem obvious but my advice would be to build plenty of workshops, turn off hauling and kick their lazy ass into gear

[Malarauko]

I'm actually with lolcats, i much prefer having a very low dwarf cap - around 20-30. The problem with migrants is that the vast majority are unskilled and there's no efficient way to train them, and then the other problem is that even if they are skilled there are only so many industries to commit them to. I usually just let a few migrants get good at the professions that I didn't bring with me (cloth, crafting of other materials than stone, etc) and then establish a small military (4-10), and the rest are haulers. I don't like having crazy hauler-worker ratios because too many of the dwarves go into idle mode; anything above maybe 3:2 is a problem for my fort because I hate seeing those wretched idler counts going up.

Unfortunately as a result, I find it really difficult to make use of more than around 20 dwarves; the industry system of the game doesn't really grow vertically (ie it doesn't become more and more advanced) beyond the first 10-15 skilled tradesdwarves. I can typically get my forges going as soon as I strike ore which is really just a matter of mining speed; and metal is pretty much the highest tier of industry that DF has. After that, any new dwarves that you add to the skilled worker pool are just doing more of the same stuff you're already doing which is only useful if you let more people join the fortress population which only extrapolates the problem. Vicious cycle much. Usually once I get my entire system going, my stocks of stuff will grow over the years and when that happens a few years in a row, I know it's time to go into megaproject mode (game is beginning to stagnate and the fortress is becoming over-stabilized). only then do I start accepting more dwarves, just to serve as construction slaves.

I do regret though that these low caps prevent me from enjoying a lot of the game's bigger features. Can't really get any interesting nobles or megabeasts at only 20 dwarves. Next time I gen a world, I'll reduce the attack timings to a population of around 30 or 40, so I start getting invaded as soon as I let my fortress expand beyond the comfort zone.

You are, of course, entitled to your own opinion, but i thought i might throw my 2urists at you; My last fort (abandoned last night due to a demon infestation ruining my fps even more than it was already) looked something like this:

Total pop: ~170

That was with about 60 haulers, 30 marksdwarves and 4 axelords, and a few other random things (children, mostly). I maintained <10 idlers for that entire fort. My point being, industry definitely does scale, and when you have a large fort, it's quite easy to have a large number of workers, all of which level up to legendary in at least something they're doing within 3-10 years. There's plenty to be done with so many dwarves to satisfy, especially when you're being attacked every other season.

In terms of the most efficient way to train them, it might seem obvious but my advice would be to build plenty of workshops, turn off hauling and kick their lazy ass into gear

My forts usually end up with roughly the same proportions. Probably more stoneworkers (haulers/stoneworkers really) and a bigger militia of melee dwarves.

[nenjin]

The disconnect I think here is that many people don't like treating their dwarves as faceless mooks. It's not where the magic is for us. So throwing several dwarves at any task out of necessity is anathema to me. Even moods kind of annoy me because it's like "I wasn't planning on having a glass industry at all, damn it."

So quick and dirty solutions aren't really fun for me in DF and I suspect for a lot of other people too. I personally wanna see for the forest for the trees, and that's hard with 30 new faces every other seasons to gauge, place, name and develop. Only when all the other attention-consuming details have been worked out will I let a lot of migrants in, because then I can devote my full attention to them and figuring out their place in the fortress.

[Malarauko]

I like to play the benevolent but disinterested god. The god parent deity if you will.

[telamon]

firstly:

I like playing with large populations, my current fort has 300 dwarves.

DAYMUM. what's your fps? That's a pretty huge fortress.

@schismatise: That's 41 skilled dwarves total; I'm typically hovering around 10. That's 4x as much secondary industry/tertiary industry products coming out of your labor machine as out of mine. The total output of stuff is just too much for me to take care of =P I simply can't find a use for that much dwarf-made goods all over my fort, unless I go into megaproject mode and even then I typically only need a few skilled workers to be running blocks the whole time - the rest are all in construction work. What do you do with all that stuff you make? I typically don't find myself needing THAT much stuff. My most important workers (metalsmith, carpenter, farmer, miner, mason) could probably use a second or third worker to them, but other than that most of my industries run fine off one person. I don't know what to do with any more than that.

The disconnect I think here is that many people don't like treating their dwarves as faceless mooks. It's not where the magic is for us. So throwing several dwarves at any task out of necessity is anathema to me. Even moods kind of annoy me because it's like "I wasn't planning on having a glass industry at all, damn it."

So quick and dirty solutions aren't really fun for me in DF and I suspect for a lot of other people too. I personally wanna see the forest for the trees, and that's hard with 30 new faces every other seasons to gauge, place, name and develop. Only when all the other attention-consuming details have been worked out will I let a lot of migrants in, because then I can devote my full attention to them and figuring out their place in the fortress.

Though I have lately suffered a bit of a separation from this mentality, I definitely know where nenjin is coming from on this one. In my earlier forts I knew all 25 dwarves by name and what they did. In my most recent fortress, more aggressive use of DF therapist reduced the need, but I still could tell on sight who was who. Tougher to do when you got five times as many of the little farts running around lol. Ofc that personal aspect is less important for some people, and others can still get a feel for it even in a big fort; more power to em. Not me though. I gotta veto every single sucker that walks onto the map (esp because of vampires in more recent days) so I prefer to have a small, very controlled pool of dwarves until I'm ready to set my population up the bomb.

[Girlinhat]

I get personal with some, but the bulk get put on bulk duty and left to fend for themselves.  I essentially end up setting up small clans composed of particularly interesting dwarves while the laborers do what they will.