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Author Topic: New Player Feedback  (Read 4334 times)

Marc Remillard

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Re: New Player Feedback
« Reply #15 on: March 14, 2012, 08:04:28 am »

Just a little something for ya: The next release is a bugfix release and will fix a couple of outstanding bugs from the dawn of time. Toady'll get to everything if given enough time.

Hehe. Developer's have a love for moving onto new things, bug fixing and regressions tend to not get much love. Its a bold statement, though.
Erm... Toady said so himself. Also, here is Toady's development log. The clothes bugs he's mentioned today are at least four years old.

I think it would be fair to say that the various UI and playability problems turn what should've been a 5.10a difficulty cliff (doable with a fair bit of practice and determination, or for someone experienced with climbing things) into a 5.12d or so (haha, yeah, come back after a few years of training).
Erm... wut? What are the UI and playability problems you're talking about?

I dub thee, "Erm". I'm guessing its a rock-climbing scale but its been a while :)
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MehMuffin

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Re: New Player Feedback
« Reply #16 on: March 14, 2012, 08:09:30 am »

the barrel for drinks problem is hardly one cause now you can transform stones into stone pots.
I dislike pots mostly for how they look, I usually end up just deforesting the map for barrels, mostly because they look nicer.
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TheLinguist

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Re: New Player Feedback
« Reply #17 on: March 14, 2012, 08:31:14 am »

I think it would be fair to say that the various UI and playability problems turn what should've been a 5.10a difficulty cliff (doable with a fair bit of practice and determination, or for someone experienced with climbing things) into a 5.12d or so (haha, yeah, come back after a few years of training).
Erm... wut? What are the UI and playability problems you're talking about?

Restricting myself to issues mentioned in the OP: job cancellation spam hiding combat reports due to burrowing and such; non-obvious workshops and reaction names; lack of good TTF support; a layout that expects a 80x24 tile window; keys that do different things in different menus, even if you would expect them to do the same thing (one example I can think of is how you loo"k" in fortress mode, but "l"ook in adventure mode); and really fiddly micromanagement being necessary for some things (stone usage, trading) that should really have macromanagement options available.

And there's a bunch more, obviously ;). Although at least Toady finally gave us multiple z-level designations in 0.34.xx ^_^!

I'm guessing its a rock-climbing scale but its been a while :)

Yeah, it's a (the?) rocking climbing scale used in the USA. To someone who's never touched a rock face before, but is otherwise fairly fit, climbing a 5.10a would probably seem hard but doable with a fair bit of practice, whereas climbing a 5.12d is basically magic.


Oh yeah, for the OP: if you want to mass-trade *everything* (except maybe the bins), one technique I use is to make use of macros. For instance, get your cursor to the top of the page, hit ctrl-r, declare everything on that page as up for trade, have the cursor end at the top of the next page, then hit ctrl-r again. Then, if you hit ctrl-p, the game will automatically select the next page for trading. You can even (as of 0.34.xx, IIRC) use ctrl-u, followed by a number, followed by ctrl-p to repeat a macro multiple times. Quite handy, and a little nicer on the wrist for purposes of mass-trading.
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slink

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Re: New Player Feedback
« Reply #18 on: March 14, 2012, 08:38:11 am »

Fairly addictive while you climb the learning cliff, but things I find really annoying, in no order:

1. Collapsing ceilings and the ground underneath, open to the daylight, remains dark and indoors. For creating pastures etc
2. Incessant spam when Alerting dwarves to hide in their burrows; its a given they won't be able to do much
3. " " and unable to store owned item, for unknown reasons, maybe bedrooms too small
4. Fey/possessed moods - the description of what they're after is often odd/wrong i.e. stone blocks is sometimes smelted bars?, other times, not sure, seem to have everything but they still remain stuck
5. Litter.
6. Naming of workshop tasks i.e. farmer's workshop... seems just random. If the only thing a task does is process a plant to a thread, call it 'Make a thread' or something. 'Process to a vial' etc many things on those lines, completely non-obvious when starting out and really requires a wiki check to see what they actually do.
7. Barrel management. Pain. Brewing should be able to take an item of wood, and the brewable item. For something so fundamental, having to have the carpenter spam barrels, followed by brewing, gets to be annoying.
8. Lack of balance/point:
  a. Why embark on a place with an aquifer? Its just a pain. I can't see how that'd be enjoyable unless you plan on a mountain fortress/volcano, in which case its ignored a bit. Manageable at times, but can't really see what it adds.
  b. Creating a large world, and being bound to one (4x4, 5x5 etc) spot, what is the point in that? Might as well spam create small worlds (in fortress mode) until you get the one you want. Fortress mode would be nice to move outside of the area you initially create.
9. Truetype support. The interface is hideous, not going to sugar coat that one. Initially using the 'original' mode, with the double spaced font... pretty much unreadable - think it even lacked punctuation from memory. Moving to the Newb Pack/Phoebus and TTF, looks a lot better, but countless issues of the text disappearing. I think we're well past 80x24 terminals by now.
10. UX. Random keys that work one way in one menu, one way in another. Arrows versus +/-. Really annoying.
11. Items that remain impossible to d>b>d (dispose of). Seems to happen from deconstructed things among others. Tried tricks of un-disposing/forbidding/claiming and re-marking as dump items, to no avail. No biggy I guess but just frustrating, adds to the 'incomplete' feel.
12. Stone management. My prime hall with yellow, blue, red, and white tables kills the interior decorator inside of me. It'd be nice to nominate what you want to build things from, or, similar to the economic stones, disable certain stones.
13. Phoebus. The tileset made it usable for me, there's a few little ASCII artefacts left (corpses etc) that'd be nice to kill off. Otherwise I'll dig out the old Wyse terminal and go all or nothing :p
14. Select all - if you've made a bulk load of items for the merchants, you get RSI having to hit down-arrow and enter.

Guess that's scraping the surface a bit. In general seems hellishly buggy, but I guess that's an alpha. All said been an incredibly fun game to check out. Just a bit more discipline, unit/functional tests, balance etc would go a long way.

Cheers.

1. The ceiling doesn't collapse if you pay proper attention to trees overhead, and don't channel over a region which has already been dug out.  My frustration has always been that areas opened up by channeling remain light forever, even after building solid rock ceiling over them.  They also take on the weather aspects of outdoors even though they are now indoors.  Oh well.
2. Yes.
3. For same reason as 2.  They can't get to something they want to store in their rooms.  They do claim items outdoors if those are not forbidden, and inherit items from relatives who may have died.
4. They sometimes want more than one type of something, eg two kinds of bones.
5. Yes.
6. The generalized naming leaves room for modders, and for future use by Tarn Adams.
7. Why would a brewer know how to make barrels, and do it at the still?  Use the City Manager to queue manufacture of barrels, or better yet, put stone pots in a repeating loop for the stonecrafter.
8. These things are a matter of individual taste.  Some people like the challenge of embarking on an aquifer.  Some people like a large world to choose from.  Neither thing are you forced to do.  Isn't it nice that others can?
9. I enjoy the ASCII display myself, but then again I grew up with keypunch cards.  There are lots of other display sets available, and even a 3D display called Stonesense.
10. Yes.
11.  Claimed items cannot be moved.  Children are notorious for claiming clothing which they cannot store because they have no room of their own.  When military drop their civilian clothing to don a uniform they also tend to leave it lying.
12. Yes.
13. Rehash of 9.
14. Yes.

DFHack/Stonesense and DFTherapist are very useful tools for this game.  Users have created a lot of mods and tools over the years which change and sometimes enhance the game for those who don't enjoy it "out of the box".

Tarn Adams has a vision for Dwarf Fortress that will probably take decades to finish.  Every time he adds a new aspect, he has to rewrite older parts where they meet the new parts.  Then he has to debug everything.  He tries his best to leave us with a working game in between releases of the new aspects.  He does the programming largely alone, although he seems now to have acquired help with the SDL interface.  He doesn't acquire a team to help him with the game itself because he considers this his personal project, which it is.  He quit a fulltime, paying, job to do this with his life.  He lives on our contributions.  He is happy living and working that way.  We are happy with him, and content with the results.  This is a very loyal community.   ;)
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Orkel

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Re: New Player Feedback
« Reply #19 on: March 14, 2012, 10:19:24 am »

I have separate stockpiles yeah. I don't know, I guess it just feels like a constant booze war to me, a little too much so... maybe the peanuts just drink too much, to the point where I'll buy out the merchant of grog, and then continually spam 'brew' at the still. I reckon the rate of consumption could do with a bit of tweaking down.

You can put it on repeat, no need to spam brew. Press "r" while having the "brew drink" selected in the still menu.
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Girlinhat

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Re: New Player Feedback
« Reply #20 on: March 14, 2012, 10:34:54 am »

First of all, love how "feedback" has come to mean "criticism".  Is there nothing you enjoy about the game?  Your whole feedback has been hate!

Second, this is a game in development.  Developed by one coder.  For free.  Don't expect miracles.

Third, and related to Second, is that there's several third party tools to help.  Toady can't handle EVERYTHING.  DFHack has a fancy "Workflow" tool that lets you set standing orders, like "keep 500 booze at all times".  DFHack also has tools to clean the floors and remove owned objects (though hopefully that one will become pointless next update).  There's also macros that help a lot in trading and designation, learn how to use them, it's worth it.

And also: http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=4460
I use this font for TTF.  Just put it into your "art" folder and rename it to "font" and DF will load it instead.  It has nice spacing, ♂ ♀ ☼ ≡ support, and generally works very well.  Although there is currently an issue with TTF that causes odd blank areas.  This is an overall TTF issue and not related to any specific font or tileset.

Kogut

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Re: New Player Feedback
« Reply #21 on: March 14, 2012, 10:53:22 am »

Your whole feedback has been hate!
WTF? Hate? Where?
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MagmaMcFry

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Re: New Player Feedback
« Reply #22 on: March 14, 2012, 10:59:33 am »

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Kogut

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Re: New Player Feedback
« Reply #23 on: March 14, 2012, 11:09:31 am »

Your whole feedback has been hate!
WTF? Hate? Where?
OP.
(s)he just listed annoying things. I created poll of irritating bugs. Is it a hate?
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Tired of going decades without goblin sieges? Try The Fortress Defense Mod
Kogut, the Bugfixes apostle of Bay12forum. Every posts he makes he preaches about the evil of Bugs.

MagmaMcFry

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Re: New Player Feedback
« Reply #24 on: March 14, 2012, 11:16:56 am »

Well, the OP is just not what you expect after reading the thread title.
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slink

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Re: New Player Feedback
« Reply #25 on: March 14, 2012, 11:19:44 am »

"Hellishly buggy" could be seen as a bit hateful.  I've paid money for supposedly release-quality games in the past that had more bugs and lower functionality than DF.  Descent to Undermountain comes to mind.  Playing it as a fighter was marginally possible, although definitely bugged.  Playing it as a mage was impossible because once your mana ran out that was the end.  Mana recovery was bugged and there were no patches planned for this.  Now that was a game that was hellishly buggy.   :D
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SlimyMarmot

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Re: New Player Feedback
« Reply #26 on: March 14, 2012, 11:42:37 am »

Some of you are being a bit unfair to the OP IMHO. All I see is civil criticism/bug finding (mostly spot on as well), with little "hate". Since when is finishing your post with "an incredibly fun game to check out" considered hostile, hmm?

But enough of that, @OP: Mostly agreed, bugs are fixed every now and then, I heartily recommend following development, maybe trying out what some mods have to offer and finding creative ways to die. Cheers.
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Flying Dice

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Re: New Player Feedback
« Reply #27 on: March 14, 2012, 11:56:32 am »

Just one thing re aquifers: Infinite clean water + water draining.  What isn't to like?
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MonkeyHead

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Re: New Player Feedback
« Reply #28 on: March 14, 2012, 11:59:54 am »

Some of you are being a bit unfair to the OP IMHO. All I see is civil criticism/bug finding (mostly spot on as well), with little "hate". Since when is finishing your post with "an incredibly fun game to check out" considered hostile, hmm?

But enough of that, @OP: Mostly agreed, bugs are fixed every now and then, I heartily recommend following development, maybe trying out what some mods have to offer and finding creative ways to die. Cheers.

Perhaps unfairly, most of us that have spent some time here are judging this thread negativley simply as we get to see a thread like this from someone new thinking they are being helpful about once a week. A little bit of browsing the forum would show that the issues raised are often widley known about, frequently discussed/debated, and often in hand.

slothen

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Re: New Player Feedback
« Reply #29 on: March 14, 2012, 12:41:41 pm »

I have separate stockpiles yeah. I don't know, I guess it just feels like a constant booze war to me, a little too much so... maybe the peanuts just drink too much, to the point where I'll buy out the merchant of grog, and then continually spam 'brew' at the still. I reckon the rate of consumption could do with a bit of tweaking down.

Having brewers that make booze also make barrels at the same time is dumb, its not like dwarves eat the barrel when its empty of booze.  For an expanding fortress that is constantly expanding food and booze production to feed more dwarves, you will always need to keep producing barrels (or stone pots).  There's nothing wrong with this.  Its mostly a problem early because food competes with booze for barrels, and dwarves randomly choose food and booze, not just from the barrel that is closest to being empty, however they will be emptied eventually.  Furthermore, there are several easy solutions, such as: build more barrels/pots.  Set the max barrel attribute on food (non-booze) stockpiles to 0 or 1.

I'm glad to see you're enjoying the game, but don't expect your litany of complaints to be taken seriously.  All of them fall under one or more of the following categories:

- problems that are not actually problems (or bugs)
- citing features as problems
- problems that have simple workarounds
- problems that have been around for ages and we don't care about because fixing would take a long time and/or there are easy workarounds
- problems that are new with the new release
- bugs that slated to be addressed in the current release cycle
- suggesting dwarves should drink less booze  >:(
- saying Tarn needs more discipline  >:(

There are problems with the game and bugs in it that need to be addressed at some point, and I'm not trying to say that "there is a workaround" is an acceptable solution for every problem.  And when I say workaround, i mean workaround as in a method to get around problems caused by a bug.  A solution to a fortress-management problem that arises from working-as-intended game mechanics e.g. needing more barrels, stone management, your issue #14 (hint: use bins) is not a workaround to a bug, its intended gameplay.

P.S.  I don't think anyone means to jump down your throat here, DF players love sharing the joys of the game with others.  You just picked a bad day to sound like the guy that doesn't know how good he has it, what with Toady announcing yesterday that he's fixing clothing/armor and claimed items.
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