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[Bookthras]

Did anyone notice the hidden message in my Message to the Emperor? 

No, I totally missed it. In fact, I just went back and I can't find it at all. But something did seem off about the way you were talking, which I read not as an attempt at communication, but as subliminal scumminess. I really thought you were scum D1, and would have asked Think to target you, but your outing of Servant made me reconsider (great move, by the way, especially if you weren't actually sure! it was totally convincing).

The one inside the HRs in this post.  I wanted to make it stand out in some way without being too obvious about it.
My plan was to do my best to get Servant lynched (since he had the NK) but he did the job for me on his wincon slip.

Wow. I totally misread that at the time. It did seem out of place, but I didn't think about it having a veiled message (even though you said "This is a message"! Duh!), and instead thought you were acting funny and out of character, and therefore scummy. I really should have picked up that there was something else there. It didn't help that I didn't know there were double-agents -- I knew from GG that there was a "new role", but I didn't know what that meant at all, and indeed manage to forget about it for most of D1 until talking with GG reminded me.

Now imagine if the scum had NOT shrugged off my warnings and had simply used, I dunno - fake names.

Quicktopic uses login system, so it's impossible to post under a fake name while being logged in. [...] And it is certainly possible to determine the speaker by the peculiarities of their speech, verbal tics, typical grammatical errors.

As Toony said, quit yer whining. All this is easily doable, from logging out, to changing your name and speech patterns and so on, and I have done it before. It would have been trivial for the people in the frigging dark room chat, who had been explicitly told to be cagey about who else was there, to conceal information about themselves. That they didn't do so only speaks to their lack of cunning, and has nothing to do with GG, quicktopic, or the phase of the moon. Next time, they should play better, instead of allowing Toaster to know all their identities by D1. That was just dumb.

1) Doctors protect against kills, not conversions. They can do their action in the night.[...]
4) Therefore the Emperor could have been converted in the night,

I had the same worry, but GG confirmed that conversion was treated as a "kill" for the purposes of this game and protection, so a doctor's help would have been enough to prevent it. In fact, he said as much on thread. So much for the "not as smart", eh?  8-P

A question: If the Emperor was converted as a Cybrid, would the Imperials still have to protect him to win?

No. I asked GG the same thing, and he said that if I were converted, I would have effectively died ("the person you were is dead"), and the game would have been over as a loss of town and myself immediately. Converting me was a losing bet as long as we had doctors, though (unless they were blocked or targeted someone else).

[ToonyMan]

I mean, imagine if one of the users in the dark room used MY name.  There wouldn't be a star to show it's me but that would be perfect for rebels to fuck with double agents.  Even if it doesn't work it can cast doubt on everything else.

[Bookthras]

GG: Please change the thread name for posterity. I suggest something like "Game over: Toen superfast ubervictory! For Earth!"

[Servant Corps]

I had the same worry, but GG confirmed that conversion was treated as a "kill" for the purposes of this game and protection, so a doctor's help would have been enough to prevent it.

Alright then. I was wrong...

Next time, they should play better, instead of allowing Toaster to know all their identities by D1. That was just dumb.

It would have been trivial for the people in the frigging dark room chat, who had been explicitly told to be cagey about who else was there, to conceal information about themselves.

Alright, I have held myself for quite some time, and I am going to admit (again) that what happened was dumb mistakes and that town deserve victory...but...I also think this mechanic should never again be introduced in a mafia game.

Concealing information nerfs the ability of the informed minority to be informed. It means we can't coordinate, we can't call people to defend us from a bandwagon, we can't even determine who to night-kill, we can't coordinate, we can't do absolutely anything at all, why do we even have a dumb quicktopic in the first place, I'd be better off being a serial killer. Oh wait, no I wouldn't because then I might shoot my scumbuddies and weaken rebels.

And your call to play better? If we had played better, then Toaster's role would effectively be rendered meaningless and he'd just be a regular Miller. Granted, some information has to be conveyed otherwise there's no reason to actually talk in said chat (see informed minority). For example, theoretically had I not messed up and survived to D2, I would have learnt that there was an Enforcer, that the Enforcer targeted Ottofar, and that Phantom is not one. There may be use in that information. But it's not really useful information, and it's information the Emperor was alright with "sharing" to me. And Emperor, you knew who Think0028 was. You knew who all your Imperial Officers were. I didn't know who any of my fellow rebel scum were, and not until I made my post that doomed us all, because for crying out loud, we're supposed to talk.

And the whole "imagine if one of the users in the dark room used MY name"? Well, I randomly selected to pose as Ottofar in the "real" rebel  chat, which I intended to use for misdirection (why misdirection as opposed to using it as "secure chat"? Because it was an idea that GG suggested and I liked that idea...and knowing what I know today, I would have still done the same). Guess what happened? Ottofar was actually a rebel. I can't just randomly use your name, ToonyMan, because if you were scum, I'd implicate you unintentionally and get you lynched.

We can't coordinate. We can't do anything worthwhile. I'm not going to say it's not fair, but I am going to do whatever in my power to make sure Double Agents don't see other people's chats.

Oh, and...

it would have been trivial for the people in the frigging dark room chat, who had been explicitly told to be cagey about who else was there

We weren't told that.

In this small dark room, it is hard to make out the features of your compatriots, or even tell how many there are. But it is free of listening devices, and the darkness makes it safe from prying eyes.

It is the perfect place to plot either a murder or a revolution, and you are plotting both.

I was told to be cagey about who else were there. But this was a different sort of "caginess" than what happened here. It was a caginess of "I know I can trust Ottofar Day 1, but what about Day 2?" The caginess that is at the core of Cybrid Mafia. Not the caginess of "Oh whoops, there was a guy who was silent who was watching you all the times, but turns out Toaster was a blind guy who can hear stuff, so there was indeed no prying eyes, the fluff was completely accurate..."

I was specifically told that the Dark Room was a "scum chat", and that I should be cagey because the scum chat could get compromised, but in the future, and not at the present time. I was told that the Rebel Chat was to be used as backup in case of the chat does get compromised, or I could use it as a tool to misled the Imperials. I was not told that the Scum Chat was already compromised in the first place. I had no reason to believe that was the case.

However, as this is a bastard game, and the mod is allowed to lie, this is acceptable. What's not acceptable is letting this role continue onward and continued to be defended like this was at all a good idea...

[Phantom of The Library]

Wow that was fast. 
About that slip-up: basically I was under a lot of stress in RL and really wasn't thinking when I claimed, it was part noobishness I will admit. 

It was a useful learning experience though, I've discovered that I need to get a less scummy mindset when playing town, I value my own life too much.  That's something I need to fix.

[GlyphGryph]

Servant Corps,

I should point out that this was the first game where the rebels GOT a chat. At all. The rebel faction is not the "informed minority" in Cybrid games - that's the Cybrids (and Tiruin opted to bypass that for parasite powers and got super unlucky. Having a weak player may have been a mistake on my party, though, for a parasite game). In point if fact, this is the very reason I made you an "Investigator" - with it, you could easily indentify, conclusively, whether or not someone was an ally, and then invite them to Rebel Chat - which was, as I said, safe. You got both a chat with your fellow rebels and a scum kill, and only one guy you needed to take out. Not too bad, I think!

Don't get me wrong - this was not intended to be an easy game for the rebels to win - but rather, 50/50 chance for town and "scum", meaning rebels+cybrid. So, it wasn't really fair to the rebels, per se. But you did have a couple advantages - your investigations might tell you the for-sure identities of other rebels. Your access to Imperial Chat and status as an officer could help you guide them away from you and towards town from a decent position of trust. If Toaster DID somehow reveal your identity, you would have been in a good position to deny it, push him for details, and get him lynched. After all, you could investigate him and he would LEGITIMATELY come up rebel!

I won't say it wasn't going to be a hard road, but it was doable.

I'm actually of the opinion Tiruin should have gone with the Machinator or the Hunter - Immunity to Night Kills + Indy Kill/Double Kill would have been pretty powerful this game, and he wouldn't have had to deal with the risk of the parasite.

[Servant Corps]

I wasn't referring to the Cybrid games in general, but to this specific game. The reason I described the rebels as the "informed minority" was that the rebels behaved as a 'mafia'...they had a scumkill and had a unique chat (that was compromised, I admit, but they had it).

The more I hear, the more disappointed I am. There was so much that 'could' be done to address the "unfairness", but I could never do it and was thinking in a different direction than you were. For example, I planed to use the investigation to hunt Cybrids and send accurate reports to the Emperor. I wasn't planning on checking the claimed "rebels".

All I'm concerned about is moving on forward though. What happened has happened, and so long as that "power" is gone, I'm glad.

EDIT: Basically, if you intended us to use our role in a certain way and that there are infiltrators who are watching our chat at this moment, and that we should use your investigations to confirm other rebels, etc., you should have warned us ahead of time and told us exactly what we had to do. I understand this ruins the bastadary nature of the mod, but it would be a little more fair, in my opinion.

[GlyphGryph]

I will admit it probably wasn't the best set up. But lets be honest - we never actually got to see ANY of the special mechanics in action since no one lived that long, so we're both really just guessing as to how it would have gone down.

[Servant Corps]

True.

[Tiruin]

. . .

Should've infected him [The Emperor] Day 1.

Let me explain what happened for those who are...not as smart.

1) Doctors protect against kills, not conversions. They can do their action in the night.
2) Guards protect against kills and conversions. They must announce their action in the day, as well as their Guard target.
3) Nobody protected the Emperor during the day.
4) Therefore the Emperor could have been converted in the night, and the fact that Tiruin did not do so helped doomed his cause. That being said, I would have done the same if I was in his shoes, because I'd assume the Emperor had something to protect him from conversions, even if it is something like "Weak".

A question: If the Emperor was converted as a Cybrid, would the Imperials still have to protect him to win?

Woah, I understood the whole case but I was under the impression he had his own internal defense or something. There would obviously be doctors, as I knew my powers would be wasted (Though not me being NK'd unless I hit a weak character or was NK'd myself).

Edit: About that Dark Room thing and subtlety, it looks my victim did not know about it:

You wait in the darkness. Here is where the rebel//animal was supposed to meet his friends//allies//tools. They will, perhaps, be the same for you, at least until you have no further use for them.

Yep, totally unaware advisor to the Emperor. 

Also, yes. I did consider the fact of being a Hunter//Killer in game: immunity to any Night action. But, if I were a Parasite, it would help by explicitly transferring the scum to other people, regardless of faction. The Hunter//Killer can get lynched, but at least as a Parasite, the only fear I have is of my target being NK'd, me hitting a 'weak' target  or getting lynched in the day. The latter is surprisingly low if I'd pick my targets carefully.

Still, the blue Toaster got me.

[Orangebottle]

The following is a message for Grand Emperor Book:

Servant Corps
Ottofar
Tiruin
Are
Rebels or cybrids

Nice work, Toaster.
I had a great time watching this game from afar!

[Toaster]

Actually, the original message intended just "Rebels."  The thought of one of them being both hadn't crossed my mind.


Tiruin:  A choice like that just comes down to how much you trust your day game.  Keep practicing and you'll get to the point where you trust things to do it all yourself.

[GlyphGryph]

Would anyone be interested in trying for a slightly rebalanced version of this game? This time with a fully open setup, obviously. (And a different assortment of semi-random roles)

Minor Modifications:
Imperial Double agents WILL have access to the "Dark Room".
Rebel Double agents will NOT have access to the Imperial Chat right off the bat.
Cybrid conversions still count as kills.

Would anyone be interested in giving it a try, or should I just let it be?

[Toaster]

You mean with the Emperor?  I think it'd be much less interesting the second time around, despite the extremely short nature of this game.  If you want another Cybrid, shuffle everything.

[GlyphGryph]

Wouldn't want to step on Servant's feet, though - he did call running the next game.

Eh, I should really stay away for a while anyways, though it's been quite fun coming back...