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Author Topic: Save the DM!  (Read 17915 times)

kaenneth

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Re: Save the DM!
« Reply #60 on: March 20, 2012, 09:16:37 pm »

I would think the treasure room would need a valid path from the map edge, like a trade depot; except locked doors are considered passable, if they can be broken down by building destroyers.

There would also have to be a benefit to the fort for having a treasure room, otherwise the DM will just end up taking a hot bath.
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Black_Legion

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Re: Save the DM!
« Reply #61 on: March 20, 2012, 09:51:56 pm »


With the Secrets systems I'm surprised this hasn't been put forward yet... Let me explain.

The DM is something that added flavor and richness to the dwarves in the earlier versions. He was a crazy bugger with an obsession for cloaks and could mould beast's minds like so much gelatin.

He was funny, characterful, and usefull. He added life to the world. I want him back. With the secrets system he can.

We have secrets of necromancy and vampires. Why not a secret of Beasts?

Example: In world gen a creature becomes obsessed with the beasts that surround their city. A god of the Hunt or wilderness may grant a follower a carved beast skull containing the secrets of savagery. The creature embarks on a journey to taim a non mundane creature or claims a cave to begin their contemplation. Over the years they study the beasts/ secret and their minds change.

[ECCENTRICITY:CLOAKS], [SAVAGE_TONGUE] are added via the secret learned.

They obsess over the beasts and find that to truly understand the beasts he must become like them. Their skin covers his form, the cloaks of many hides function as both a form of defense, intimidation, and obscures his form and smell to put the beasts at ease.

He learns to communicate with them as if he could speak their very language. He can tame creatures with an ease and confidence that makes even the Beast Master of the fort blush with embarassment.

He has become a Dungeon Master, a master of beasts and their savage minds. Like a vampire he can immigrate to a fortress... Yet he offers his services for the good of the fort. The other dwarves are disturbed by his presence but he does not mind. The dragon and giant scorpions you have caught has reached him through words of awe by the caravan. He needs beasts to study, to continue to understand their ways. You have them and it is enough. The fortress grows and his collection grows with it. This is Dwarf Fortress!

He may make a few mandates, more chains, more cloaks, more beasts but the last siege has already been broken by Gnarlfange the bronze of chains... Your pet dragon. You are pleased and the Dungeon Master is proud of his new pet.

/ example. -- this is only one example how it could work in world gen with the secrets system.

With the secrets framework we can have both a master of beasts and our beloved cloaked bastard.
The beast master is the head of training in your fort. He manages beasts and their training. The dungeon master is simply one who has so dedicated his life to understanding their nature that even the gods have taken notice.

People become fascinated by nature and creatures all the time. masters of dragons/ fell creatures / and magical beings are just as rife in fantasy as wizards, necromancers and the undead. I think with something along these lines we can preserve the DM in spirit and form while still keeping the organic history generation. After all isn't the framework for special behavior and abilities, the Secrets system, exist for this very reason?
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Owlbread

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Re: Save the DM!
« Reply #62 on: March 21, 2012, 12:28:44 pm »


With the Secrets systems I'm surprised this hasn't been put forward yet... Let me explain.

The DM is something that added flavor and richness to the dwarves in the earlier versions. He was a crazy bugger with an obsession for cloaks and could mould beast's minds like so much gelatin.

He was funny, characterful, and usefull. He added life to the world. I want him back. With the secrets system he can.

We have secrets of necromancy and vampires. Why not a secret of Beasts?

Example: In world gen a creature becomes obsessed with the beasts that surround their city. A god of the Hunt or wilderness may grant a follower a carved beast skull containing the secrets of savagery. The creature embarks on a journey to taim a non mundane creature or claims a cave to begin their contemplation. Over the years they study the beasts/ secret and their minds change.

[ECCENTRICITY:CLOAKS], [SAVAGE_TONGUE] are added via the secret learned.

They obsess over the beasts and find that to truly understand the beasts he must become like them. Their skin covers his form, the cloaks of many hides function as both a form of defense, intimidation, and obscures his form and smell to put the beasts at ease.

He learns to communicate with them as if he could speak their very language. He can tame creatures with an ease and confidence that makes even the Beast Master of the fort blush with embarassment.

He has become a Dungeon Master, a master of beasts and their savage minds. Like a vampire he can immigrate to a fortress... Yet he offers his services for the good of the fort. The other dwarves are disturbed by his presence but he does not mind. The dragon and giant scorpions you have caught has reached him through words of awe by the caravan. He needs beasts to study, to continue to understand their ways. You have them and it is enough. The fortress grows and his collection grows with it. This is Dwarf Fortress!

He may make a few mandates, more chains, more cloaks, more beasts but the last siege has already been broken by Gnarlfange the bronze of chains... Your pet dragon. You are pleased and the Dungeon Master is proud of his new pet.

/ example. -- this is only one example how it could work in world gen with the secrets system.

With the secrets framework we can have both a master of beasts and our beloved cloaked bastard.
The beast master is the head of training in your fort. He manages beasts and their training. The dungeon master is simply one who has so dedicated his life to understanding their nature that even the gods have taken notice.

People become fascinated by nature and creatures all the time. masters of dragons/ fell creatures / and magical beings are just as rife in fantasy as wizards, necromancers and the undead. I think with something along these lines we can preserve the DM in spirit and form while still keeping the organic history generation. After all isn't the framework for special behavior and abilities, the Secrets system, exist for this very reason?

That sort of character would be amazing, and I support it wholeheartedly, but I'm going to keep saying it; how does it relate to dungeons or dungeon masters? You are looking at a different sort of name.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Save the DM!
« Reply #63 on: March 21, 2012, 12:42:38 pm »

That sort of character would be amazing, and I support it wholeheartedly, but I'm going to keep saying it; how does it relate to dungeons or dungeon masters? You are looking at a different sort of name.

Where else would you keep your dragons but in a dungeon?

I mean, "dungeon" as a term for "jail" is more unusual and outmoded than using it for "place you go on adventures and beat up random exotic critters for treasure".
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Owlbread

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Re: Save the DM!
« Reply #64 on: March 21, 2012, 12:56:02 pm »

That sort of character would be amazing, and I support it wholeheartedly, but I'm going to keep saying it; how does it relate to dungeons or dungeon masters? You are looking at a different sort of name.

Where else would you keep your dragons but in a dungeon?

I mean, "dungeon" as a term for "jail" is more unusual and outmoded than using it for "place you go on adventures and beat up random exotic critters for treasure".

It's an unusual and outmoded usage among RPG gamers, yes. It's very unusual outside of our culture though. Perhaps it would seem outmoded in America but in Europe, we've had "dungeons" for a very long time and only stopped using them in quite recent memory. I remember clearly as a little boy being taken around the dungeons every time we would visit a castle (if it had them); we'd see thumb screws, shackles, the branks etc.

Still, I can't argue with dragons being kept in dungeons. Well, maybe. Again, I don't know if a dungeon is the right word for a holding place for a dragon; you'd keep a dragon in some kind of a cell or a chamber but a dungeon has connotations of torture and so on. The name just doesn't seem right.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2012, 01:01:29 pm by Owlbread »
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Black_Legion

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Re: Save the DM!
« Reply #65 on: March 21, 2012, 03:57:41 pm »

That sort of character would be amazing, and I support it wholeheartedly, but I'm going to keep saying it; how does it relate to dungeons or dungeon masters? You are looking at a different sort of name.

Where else would you keep your dragons but in a dungeon?

I mean, "dungeon" as a term for "jail" is more unusual and outmoded than using it for "place you go on adventures and beat up random exotic critters for treasure".

It's an unusual and outmoded usage among RPG gamers, yes. It's very unusual outside of our culture though. Perhaps it would seem outmoded in America but in Europe, we've had "dungeons" for a very long time and only stopped using them in quite recent memory. I remember clearly as a little boy being taken around the dungeons every time we would visit a castle (if it had them); we'd see thumb screws, shackles, the branks etc.

Still, I can't argue with dragons being kept in dungeons. Well, maybe. Again, I don't know if a dungeon is the right word for a holding place for a dragon; you'd keep a dragon in some kind of a cell or a chamber but a dungeon has connotations of torture and so on. The name just doesn't seem right.

The name "Dungeon Master" shouldn't really matter that much. I understand the fixation with name fits the purpose but the name DM in regular DF is associated with with a cloak loving figure who can tame anything at will. You lose the name and the meaning goes with it at least until we have a new designation for it that we get used to. I'de still like to see a Dungeon Master like secret that imparts the familiar behaviors and the possibility to appoint my own beast masters.

The name Dungeon master does seem incongruous with its actual function but there history and meaning behind the name for DF fans. And thats the kicker, what the name means to Fans. I'm okay for a name change I just want the spirit/ quirkiness of the Dungeon Master (10+ cloaks and a pair of mittens and not much else plus the ability to instantly tame beasts) to live on. Preferably as a secret like necromancy. I love the way the new mechanics are coming along though. I just want to see the secrets expanded to give the DM new life. Of course its all up to Toady and I'll play it either way.
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bombzero

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Re: Save the DM!
« Reply #66 on: March 21, 2012, 08:24:50 pm »

The name Dungeon master does seem incongruous with its actual function but there history and meaning behind the name for DF fans. And thats the kicker, what the name means to Fans. I'm okay for a name change I just want the spirit/ quirkiness of the Dungeon Master (10+ cloaks and a pair of mittens and not much else plus the ability to instantly tame beasts) to live on. Preferably as a secret like necromancy. I love the way the new mechanics are coming along though. I just want to see the secrets expanded to give the DM new life. Of course its all up to Toady and I'll play it either way.

this is actually the primary issue, older fans are stuck on what a broken, half working, missing for years NPC was back then. he has been gone for some time and a great deal of people know nothing of him more than they saw on youtube videos and forum threads from 2008.

so keeping something around for nostalgic purposes is great and all, but it would create 1001 posts about 'why is it called a dungeon master' a year or two down the road.
we no longer need a specific noble to train special animals, so im not sure why we would want another noble whos hard to replace and serves no purpose.

if he allows access to a breeding screen that has nothing to do with him having intimate knowledge of animals ways, thats something an animal trainer is supposed to know.
if he takes care of a 'dungeon'(RPG style) that poses massive problems with how these areas are defined/work.
if he allows any real special function, that could otherwise be learned via training animals, than there is no reason we need a 'special' noble for it.

wanting to keep something for pure flavor, or simply because it used to be awesome, is not particularly conducive to forward progress.

him being appointable makes sense for giving special breeding/animal management screens.
him being 'special' in being a world-gen secret or some crazy guy who ran off into the woods makes sense for him having some special control over animals, beyond those of a trainer.

mainly im seeing the current issues with 'special' nobles, in that if they die your fort is crippled for many years, often unreasonably as the void they left could be filled by someone else who has been training in the job during that time.

sorry to be so negative, im just trying to explain why people are opposed to keeping him in the game more or less.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Save the DM!
« Reply #67 on: March 21, 2012, 08:58:50 pm »

this is actually the primary issue, older fans are stuck on what a broken, half working, missing for years NPC was back then. he has been gone for some time and a great deal of people know nothing of him more than they saw on youtube videos and forum threads from 2008.

so keeping something around for nostalgic purposes is great and all, but it would create 1001 posts about 'why is it called a dungeon master' a year or two down the road.
we no longer need a specific noble to train special animals, so im not sure why we would want another noble whos hard to replace and serves no purpose.

if he allows access to a breeding screen that has nothing to do with him having intimate knowledge of animals ways, thats something an animal trainer is supposed to know.
if he takes care of a 'dungeon'(RPG style) that poses massive problems with how these areas are defined/work.
if he allows any real special function, that could otherwise be learned via training animals, than there is no reason we need a 'special' noble for it.

wanting to keep something for pure flavor, or simply because it used to be awesome, is not particularly conducive to forward progress.

him being appointable makes sense for giving special breeding/animal management screens.
him being 'special' in being a world-gen secret or some crazy guy who ran off into the woods makes sense for him having some special control over animals, beyond those of a trainer.

mainly im seeing the current issues with 'special' nobles, in that if they die your fort is crippled for many years, often unreasonably as the void they left could be filled by someone else who has been training in the job during that time.

sorry to be so negative, im just trying to explain why people are opposed to keeping him in the game more or less.

It wasn't that long ago that the dungeon master worked in vanilla, and you only had to make the dungeon master appointable by expedition leader to keep them working in the newer versions.  ...But that's beside the point.

Part of the point of having your best animal trainer run off into the woods for "special training" would be that it could happen more than once, so that if you did lose a "special noble" that provided a useful fort function, they could be replaced, but that it would take another dwarf going through the training process to replace them, and that would take game months.

Having special nobles that take time or special effort to replace, and as such aren't as expendable as all other dwarves isn't necessarily a bad thing. 

I also don't think it's a bad thing to have nobles that have special pre-requisites to enable them (so that it's entirely possible to build a fully mature fort without triggering them) that would work in a manner similar to the old guild masters - you get special functionality in the interface/extra complexity in control of your fort geared towards those specific aspects of the game that you chose to focus upon. 

Giving you a special "trains exotic animals and uses them to guard the dungeons of your fort" noble that lets you have access to specialized animal-breeding functions in exchange for going the extra mile on exotic animal taming and breeding is just customizing the fortress play to the playstyle of the player, and that sort of complexity should be encouraged in a game. 

Likewise making a champion or similar military nobles only appointed based upon whether or not you have built up sufficient military and have enough military kills is entirely reasonable. 

If we start going back the route of the guild masters, where we have specialized nobles based upon the ways in which we have built up our fortresses, and give them all specialized abilities, it makes sense, and also gives players rewards for exploring different styles of gameplay with new things to experience in the game.
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bombzero

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Re: Save the DM!
« Reply #68 on: March 21, 2012, 10:05:39 pm »

well, i was referring more to forcing the player to have a DM in order to train exotics, they shouldn't really, seeing as how dwarfs don't seem to know when they are important to a fort.  :D

the guild masters would be nice, hence my earlier post on the matter, im just not fond of when someone can do something that a similar dwarf of their profession could do just as well.
so while the original dungeon master was nice, it seems you suggesting keeping the old system, in favor of the new more dynamic system, where the 'animal trainer' skill actually matters, and having more than one of them is a good thing.
so umm, for clarification what would be the responsibilities of the Dungeon Master compared to an animal trainer in your system?
i think if he handles selective breeding, than he should be player appointed/highest skill selected automatically.
if he actually grants a special ability that a regular dwarf wouldn't really be able to do, than he should do the 'strange mood' type thing.

so umm, for clarification what would be the responsibilities of the Dungeon Master compared to an animal trainer in your system?
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Black_Legion

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Re: Save the DM!
« Reply #69 on: March 21, 2012, 10:22:12 pm »

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

True the name is now really debunk for newer players but I'd still like to see some entity/secret that leads to a dwarf acting like the DM, this woul be an affinity for multiple cloaks and maybe some powers that would be overtly positive to the player, in this case acting like a legendary tamer or some such. Possibly making taming of animals easier in any fort they inhabit. We have vampires and necromancers that harm or hamper forts with varying levels if player involvement (drafting into militia or setting up zombie moats). It would be interesting to see the secret system turned to provide innately helpful entities (besides the ongoing work of our excellent modding community)

I just fondly remember the character the older nobles brought to forts of yore and would love to seem them return in spirit. They made fortresses seem more alive to me. I'm not saying they should be nobles but a DM or whatever it's new name could be... "Beast Master" maybe... would be an interesting a characterful addition to the world of DF. A "Beast master" may be a natural choice as the head timer but wouldn't be necessary for it, after all one might not migrate to your fortress. Just like vampires aren't necessary for a hardened military. I just think his eccentricity added some interesting flavor to the world of DF and that's why i'd like to see them return... In spirit but not necessarily in name.

Moodable tamers would be interesting. It would provide foursome interesting situations. Especially if your master tamer left on a pilgrimage in the middle of a siege.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Save the DM!
« Reply #70 on: March 21, 2012, 10:42:21 pm »

so umm, for clarification what would be the responsibilities of the Dungeon Master compared to an animal trainer in your system?

I'm thinking of making "normal" animal training and even exotic taming a pre-requisite to gaining the Dungeon Master. 

Dungeon Master would be an "uplifted" normal dwarf who is the best exotic tamer in the fort, rather than an immigrant noble, whose uplift would occur as part of a special "mood" style event.  Triggering this would require special pre-requisites.

Upon hitting this upgrade, they will leave for a while, and come back as a Dungeon Master, with new menu functionality, in the same way that a manager lets you set workshop profiles when appointed, or brokers let you see the value of your fortress production.  The functionality of a DM, however, would be more specialized and not strictly necessary for running a basic fortress, probably dealing more specifically with how breeding, taming, or training is handled from a more abstract and high-level way, or else giving specific breeding instructions (as in, making specific males more likely to breed with the females of their species in order to encourage specific traits). 

DMs might also carry specific other benefits, like going out into the wild, and taming a wild animal from a biome region a few regions away from the fort itself, possibly bringing back an animal that the fortress otherwise would not have access to, and giving the fortress the ability to breed and semi-domesticate them.  Maybe players could have an option to encourage the DMs to go out and try again to tame more wild animals, as well, instead of just staying in the fort. 



More generally, what I see could occur with nobles is something vaguely related to the notion that the game should start out simple, and get more complex, rather than slamming the player straight into a learning cliff by throwing everything in their face all at once, and leaving it to them to figure it all out. 

Games like Mount and Blade handle the "informal tutorial" of the game by having more and more complex aspects of the game become available to players as they become more wealthy and powerful.  At first, you can hardly do more than struggle to survive against bandits, but you learn how to handle that, and gain more money.  Then, you can start learning how the economics of the game works when you gain the ability to start investing in businesses or incorporating trade between towns into your ambling between towns as you can afford more and more pack mules.  You learn how the politics of the game works only after you have acquired enough status and power that the nobles in the game actually start taking notice of you, and allowing you into their inner circle.  You never see the aspects of the game that relate to management of towns or villages until you actually own one, and the politics of the game only kicks into full gear when you're actually influential enough to actually start turning the tides of wars or outright carving out your own personal kingdom.

The game has a natural progression of complexity and difficulty in balancing all the complex forces vying against one another because complex parts of the game are simply out of reach of the player at the time they start the game.  You can see armies marching across the maps at the beginning, but the armies don't care about you, and you're not powerful enough to significantly influence a major conflict, anyway.

Pushing more advanced game elements onto pre-requisites to expanding your fortress (as per Class Warfare) changes the dynamic of the game into one where complexity is introduced to the player gradually, and at the player's own pace of comprehension. 

This would mean that more complex aspects of animal husbandry, for example, would be hidden from view until the player proved they were both interested in and capable of large-scale animal taming and breeding. 

Expanding this principle into further nobles that activate different advanced features (that are not implemented yet) of gameplay, such as hypothetically having a general noble requirement for pushing armies across the map when we get the army arc in, or a "barkeep association master" of some sort for advanced functions of the upcoming taverns would provide a gameplay function of shielding a new player from some of the information overload as more complex parts of the game get added in as the game develops.

In some sense, they wouldn't have much direct responsibility, the way that brokers or managers or Chief Medical Dwarf function now - they do specific things at specific times, but they also just passively enable new functions of the interface simply for existing.  (Maybe the Dungeon Master is the specific noble who is directly responsible for the import/export of creature knowledge, as had been previously suggested.  Plus they can do that "go on a journey to tame new creatures" thing, although that leaves their other functions temporarily disabled.)



Honestly, I think that having a straight-up "Beast Master" that you just call a Dungeon Master and give some of the dungeon master flavor (tendency to wear cloaks) would be fine.  The short-lived confusion that having a "Beast Master" named a Dungeon Master might give newer players would be worth the nostalgia bonus and D&D reference.
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MenacesWithSpikes

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Re: Save the DM!
« Reply #71 on: March 22, 2012, 03:31:49 pm »

Another idea:

DM could be the commander of a team/squad of 'wranglers',
equipped with whips, ropes, cloaks and maybe other weapons,
they could be ordered to capture specific creatures and then chain them in a dungeon

DRAGON WRANGLERS
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bombzero

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Re: Save the DM!
« Reply #72 on: March 22, 2012, 05:29:53 pm »

@NW_Kohaku.

implementing something like that could be nice, but it would need to be implemented for all sections of the game, lest animal training becomes the only thing fun about it, im sure you have seen something like this problem with various other games.

so it would be nice if a fort sort of went;
1) digging hole in ground, planting crops, digging meeting area. no special nobles, no special abilities.
2) getting difined dining and production areas started. old bookerkeeper, manager, and other basic nobles appointed by player.
3) industry gets advanced, population booming, areas becoming more defined in purpose, less general stockpiles and more specialized ones. higher-up nobles can be assigned or migrate.
4) fort begins showing a few specialties, guild masters or an equivilant can be appointed for each 'section' of industry, giving you advanced controls.
4.b) can also assign a 'foreman' the upgrade of the manager who can assign advanced work orders, and allows assigning stockpiles to workshops, and what skill ranges of workers get assigned what jobs.
5) barony/mountainhome stage. king arrives, fort has several clear specialties, and the workers who work in the more important industries gain special treatment over others, miners probably revered as gods in most forts  :P.

so obviously there would be more detail stages but thats just a rough idea based on my ideas, and your post. (the DM would be one of the 'guild masters' who arise from the populace.)
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Save the DM!
« Reply #73 on: March 24, 2012, 03:32:35 pm »

Now that we have the "animals" page from the z-stocks screen, what features do people wish could be added onto the ways in which training occurs?  What would be a useful feature that a special training noble would possibly add?

Since we seem to have to manually select for training, I was thinking more powerful management tools, like auto-training specific species or more nuanced controls to train or breed specific traits.
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loose nut

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Re: Save the DM!
« Reply #74 on: March 24, 2012, 07:09:26 pm »

There could be a difference between a "war" animal and a "guard" animal. Also, training mounts.
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