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[Adrian]

Notes: The word 'deity' can just as easily be substituted for 'absurdly powerful demon', and 'literacy' for 'linguistic ability'.
[THIS IS A PLACEHOLDER], while [this is a function].
and PSEUDOCODE incoming.!

I'm sure magic has been discussed a million times by now, but just read through it.
It tried to make this magic system feel like a language, in order to make piecing together the incantations feel more natural. And just ignore how i've completely ignored Fortress Mode.

Background: Deities stem power from their worshipers, a deity without worshipers will slowly whittle out of existence.
These deities have a collective form of writing and language, represented by runes.

Runes are randomized at worldgen to keep every new world fresh, and prevent the player from remembering which runes translate to what.
The game would create a rune by taking one of the [VERB]s, [NOUN]s, [TARGET]s or [DEITY]s and randomly attaching gobbledegook to it (slap your keyboard to see what could get attached to the rune representing 'floor').
Runes are found in temples or mages' books, taught by your deity/ies, given as quest rewards, etc.

Literacy skill required to identify unknown runes, and correctly identify the runes you need for a specific incantation.
More specialized runes require higher literacy to identify ([TARGET:BODYPART] as opposed to just [TARGET]).

The syntax of incantations is: [VERB]:[NOUN]:[TARGET]:[DEITY], in which:
  [VERB]: eg. [harden/soften], [imbue/extract], [accelerate/decelerate], [heat/cool], ...
  [NOUN]: eg. [BODYPART], [floor/ceiling/wall], [gas], [liquid], [mind], [matter], [disease]
  [TARGET]:
   [self]: (Obviously) makes your adventurer the target of the incantation.
   [target]: Use cursor to manually select target.
   [area]: Use cursor to select location (diameter depends on deity's power modified by allegiance).
  [DEITY]: Will present a list of deities whose names you know.
eg. [accelerate]:[guts]:[target:enemy_goblin]:[Trololo] -> Afflicts the target goblin with explosive diarrhea, as you requested from the prankster-god 'Trololo'.

Asking favors from deities as opposed to ejaculating fire and ice from your hands.
Every time you ask the deities for a favor you run the risk of catastrophic failure or repercussions:
  Literacy.
    eg. You caused the volcano you're exploring to erupt, because instead of casting [bring]:[item]:[target]:[Lim], you accidentally cast [bring]:[magma]:[area]:[Lim] due to low literacy.
  Allegiance: a number between 0 and 1, reflecting how much a particular deity trusts you, and consequently the fraction of your deity's power you can access.
    eg. Asking the deity you've actively antagonized to heal your lopped off index finger ended with the deity removing the rest of your hand.
   But the deities are lazy bastards and prefer to do as little work as possible, so asking the same favor from a deity in good standing with you would yield no special bonuses over what you've asked of him/her.

A deity's power is a function of the amount of worship they receive.
A cast spell's effectiveness (power for instant effect spells, duration for lingering effects) should then be a function of your deity's power, modified by allegiance.

Individual deities' preferences and associations make spells affecting those associations more effective (or dangerous).
  eg. Lim takes the form of a female dwarf, so:
   She will happily grant your request to heal a dwarven child that was mauled by a tiger, gaining you an increase to her allegiance modifier for that particular incantation, healing the child more and faster.
   Asking her to incinerate your dwarven enemies however would permanently decrease the modifier, increasing the chance of repercussion until you earn her trust again.

Rivalry between deities:
  Religious rock-paper-scissors?
  Should you somehow be able to kill or banish a deity, it could create a power vacuum amongst the others.

[Loud Whispers]

Deities =/= absurdly powerful demon?

Absurdly powerful demons cannot kill deities!! RAWR

[Biopass]

There are over 9000 other threads like this, and every time I see one, I want to post this.


Toady will come up with his own magic system, most likely similar to that of Slaves to Armok I.

It will be totally and utterly unique and badass, and your first attempt at casting a fireball spell will most likely result in you teleporting your spine into your enemy, killing him instantly and you very slowly.

No idea that you have will have any effect on how Toady implements the magic system he has been mulling over for many years, no matter how tl;dr your idea is.

Your idea, like every single other magic meta-system thread I've seen started by someone with an "OMG SO COOL GUISE" idea, is far too structured and limited for Toady and the unstructured, proceedurally generated systems DF is famous for. It's not the details that will be generated and random, but in all probability, the system itself.

Toady will do a far better job than any idea posted on the forums, because it's HIS idea, and will subsequently mesh with the game HE wrote far better than anything you or I came up with could.

[Leatra]

There are over 9000 other threads like this, and every time I see one, I want to post this.


Toady will come up with his own magic system, most likely similar to that of Slaves to Armok I.

It will be totally and utterly unique and badass, and your first attempt at casting a fireball spell will most likely result in you teleporting your spine into your enemy, killing him instantly and you very slowly.

No idea that you have will have any effect on how Toady implements the magic system he has been mulling over for many years, no matter how tl;dr your idea is.

Your idea, like every single other magic meta-system thread I've seen started by someone with an "OMG SO COOL GUISE" idea, is far too structured and limited for Toady and the unstructured, proceedurally generated systems DF is famous for. It's not the details that will be generated and random, but in all probability, the system itself.

Toady will do a far better job than any idea posted on the forums, because it's HIS idea, and will subsequently mesh with the game HE wrote far better than anything you or I came up with could.

You just killed the DF Suggestions section.

[Biopass]

Nah, only the magic threads. I'm sure Toady is open to suggestions on how to implement invading other fortresses, and the myriad of other non-magic-system factors involved.

[Leatra]

I liked the magic in Slaves to Armok I too. I hope we will see something like that.

[Biopass]

I must admit I stole the story about teleporting your spine from someone's account of their first playthrough. I couldn't for the life of me tell you where though. It made me want to try Slaves I out, until I saw the graphics - elegant ASCII is a thousand times better than ugly 3d.

[Neonivek]

Deities =/= absurdly powerful demon?

Absurdly powerful demons cannot kill deities!! RAWR

Mind you I have no objection to Demons and other megabeasts capable of being Dieties.

Also my view for Dwarf Fortress has always been that if Worship gives diety power then it isn't in that the diety uses it for power but rather that worship allows the gods to enact their purpose (A god without worship can barely affect the world outside that of the gods)

[helf]

I must admit I stole the story about teleporting your spine from someone's account of their first playthrough. I couldn't for the life of me tell you where though. It made me want to try Slaves I out, until I saw the graphics - elegant ASCII is a thousand times better than ugly 3d.

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=89617.msg2472559#msg2472559

I laughed my ass off the first time I read that

[Adrian]

I didn't read through your post because it's tl;dr, but either way nothing that gets discussed about it will have any influence on the final implementation of magic.

If i actually thought my idea was fit to be implemented into DF i would have posted it on the 'suggestions' board. But it's an IDEA, not a SUGGESTION, and i decided to post it here because i thought 20 people could refine it faster than i could on my own.

It's comments like yours that are turning that are turning magic into taboo subject matter.

Toady will do a far better job than any idea posted on the forums, because it's HIS idea, and will subsequently mesh with the game HE wrote far better than anything you or I came up with could.

Also, while you're kissing Toady's ass, could you take notes regarding taste and texture?

It's not the details that will be generated and random, but in all probability, the system itself.

That would be an amazing achievement, but as far as i know impossible (or at the least impractical).
All systems, both natural and artificial, need to abide by rules in order to function correctly. eg. Randomizing the equations themselves will yield unpredictable results.
The only way to approach true randomization would be to make an equation with so many variables in it, that trying to graph it would ages if not be outright impossible.
But i'm not a programmer, so don't quote me on that.

The most effective way of giving a degree of randomization to any system would be to create an master equation for it and, at the end, add a modifier to add/subtract an unknown amount from the equation's result. Which can be as easy as using a Random Number Generator.

Anywho, what i tried with my take on a magic system was to add as much variables (requiring to find and decypher runes, the number of followers a deity has, the allegiance modifier based on trust, deity associations, ...) as i can without overly-complicating it (and wasting those already precious CPU cycles).

I believe your idea (won't work/is incomplete/can't be implemented into DF in it's current state) and here's why:

[Biopass]

If i actually thought my idea was fit to be implemented into DF i would have posted it on the 'suggestions' board. But it's an IDEA, not a SUGGESTION, and i decided to post it here because i thought 20 people could refine it faster than i could on my own.

tl;dr: Why did I post this? lol,idunno

It's comments like yours that are turning that are turning magic into taboo subject matter.

Not taboo, just something we trust Toady and Threetoe will do perfectly well. We already have an idea of what it'll be like thanks to Threetoe's stories.

Also, while you're kissing Toady's ass, could you take notes regarding taste and texture?

You sound mad.

That would be an amazing achievement, but as far as i know impossible (or at the least impractical).

The same could be said about almost every other aspect of DF. If this is how you think, there may be better games out there for you.

All systems, both natural and artificial, need to abide by rules in order to function correctly. eg. Randomizing the equations themselves will yield unpredictable results.
The only way to approach true randomization would be to make an equation with so many variables in it, that trying to graph it would ages if not be outright impossible.

...your point is? Look at what is already in the game and tell me again that Toady can't make a procedurally generated magic system.

But i'm not a programmer, so don't quote me on that.

Don't worry, I won't.

The most effective way of giving a degree of randomization to any system would be to create an master equation for it and, at the end, add a modifier to add/subtract an unknown amount from the equation's result. Which can be as easy as using a Random Number Generator.

Again, your point is? This is how were-creatures are generated... ffs, this is how anything is actually generated.

Anywho, what i tried with my take on a magic system was to add as much variables (requiring to find and decypher runes, the number of followers a deity has, the allegiance modifier based on trust, deity associations, ...) as i can without overly-complicating it (and wasting those already precious CPU cycles).

If it's not overly complicated, it's not Dwarf Fortress. And we don't need to worry about CPU cycles any more, modern CPUs will easily run 200-dwarf fortresses and chug out a thousand years of history.

Toady will do things how he sees fit when it comes to magic. It's been working out pretty well so far, imo. I think most of the community agrees as a rule.

[Leatra]

I liked the magic in Slaves to Armok 1 but things like runes, favor, rivalries between gods, being able to kill a god could be nice.

OP didn't suggest a list of spells. He suggested a way to make spells balanced and fun.

[Shinotsa]

I liked the magic in Slaves to Armok 1 but things like runes, favor, rivalries between gods, being able to kill a god could be nice.

OP didn't suggest a list of spells. He suggested a way to make spells balanced and fun.

Huh... there's no capital F and the word gruesome was horribly misspelled.

In all seriousness though I see the magic system as being far more complex than that. I can see your system as being one possibility in the future, however if the game follows through with what's intended that will only be one possibility. Runes could be replaced with magic words, hand symbols, a prayer, or heavy concentration. Power could be drawn from gods, planes of existence, life force, or thin air. Misfired magic could either go into affecting something close to you, distorting the spell, casting another you already know, or simply fizzle out and do nothing.

With that said your idea does sound interesting, but I'd also like to see some more naturalistic magic. Elves growing houses from trees, making wood as sharp as steel, or speaking with animals. Having visions, spiritual quests, or something to that effect would be pretty interesting, especially if they had actual effects on gameplay. For instance you get killed by spirit snakes in your dream and afterward you're plagued by snakes wherever you go, or perhaps your liar skill falls.

All in all I think there are many things other than fireballs and ice spikes that comprise magic, and a rigid system would have a hard time successfully representing all of them. Plus, it wouldn't be dwarf fortress if a vampire, cursed by the gods, wearing jewelery made from each of his five thousand kills, didn't live in a castle served by faries from the dimension of friendship to which there is a happy, rainbow colored portal just behind his throne.