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[Hotaru]

Does anyone have much experience with this odd weapon?

I tested it in arena mode, 10x10 fights, elves, all skills proficient, iron armour.

The morningstar team (iron morningstars) beat both silver warhammers, silver whips and adamantine shortswords (!) with very few losses.

Different morningstar materials were then thrown at each other. The resulting order was strangely

copper > iron > bronze > silver.

I was taken aback by how copper seems better than iron, so I tried it 3 times. Team copper handed team iron their asses on a platter consistently.

[Kamamura]

I have noted it elsewhere, morningstars are my favorite weapons now. I had a particularly good iron artifact morningstar, it was a true mayhem packed into portable package.

I have noticed that besides bashing, they do a lot of tearing to organs, arteries, etc. I speculate that this is due to the fact that it's actually a metal ball with spikes - the ball crushes and breaks bones, and the spikes do the tearing. Therefore, a material both dense and capable of maintaining edge is desirable - but why copper??  Iron worked nice enough for me.

Raws:


[ITEM_WEAPON:ITEM_WEAPON_MORNINGSTAR]
[NAME:morningstar:morningstars]
[SIZE:500]
[SKILL:MACE]
[TWO_HANDED:37500]
[MINIMUM_SIZE:32500]
[MATERIAL_SIZE:3]
[ATTACK:EDGE:10:500:bash:bashes:NO_SUB:2000]
[ATTACK:BLUNT:50:1000:strike:strikes:pommel:1000]

Notice that the attack is EDGEd, the contact area is only twice the size than in case of a dagger (5), but the attack type is BASH, so the weight is considered more than velocity (?) All in all, this combination is unique to morningstars, so that may be the source of their strange efficiency. You may notice that while the penetration is very small (only 500, less then a dagger, which makes sense, since the spikes are short), the velocity multiplier is huge 2000, which is typical for war hammers and maces. So this weapon, while it does not go deep like spears and pikes to pierce organs, is instead capable of doing massive surface slash wounds that cause a lot of bleeding.

[Hotaru]

Yes, I found myself a copper morningstar in adventure mode and this thing is amazing. It just shreds enemies to piercing.

I would assume it's efficiency is because it has such a small contact area (10), the same as a scourge's, 2x the size of a dagger tip, but it's much heavier than either of those weapons.

If the copper beating iron thing is genuine and not just a fluke, I would assume it's because copper is heavier than iron but has better weapon properties than silver.

EDIT: you added the info yourself

[Thecard]

What he said.  Also, to get reliable testing don't use elves.  They may intentionally fuck with you, just so you won't know which weapons are better.

[acetech09]

Notice that the attack is EDGEd, the contact area is only twice the size than in case of a dagger (5), but the attack type is BASH, so the weight is considered more than velocity (?)

Actually, the attack 'type' you think is actually just a name. The game thinks of it as an edged weapon, but called a 'bash' since that is essentially what you do with a morningstar. If I changed the tag to [ATTACK:EDGE:10:500:PONY!!!:PONIES!!!!!!:NO_SUB:2000], all that would happen is:

You PONY!!! Amxaxunaxu McGobbo with your +Iron Morningstar+ in the lower body, tearing the pancreas and bruising the stomach!
Amxaxunaxu McGobbo PONIES!!! you with his Copper Morningstar in the right upper leg, shattering the bone!

[Thecard]

Notice that the attack is EDGEd, the contact area is only twice the size than in case of a dagger (5), but the attack type is BASH, so the weight is considered more than velocity (?)

Actually, the attack 'type' you think is actually just a name. The game thinks of it as an edged weapon, but called a 'bash' since that is essentially what you do with a morningstar. If I changed the tag to [ATTACK:EDGE:10:500:PONY!!!:PONIES!!!!!!:NO_SUB:2000], all that would happen is:

You PONY!!! Amxaxunaxu McGobbo with your +Iron Morningstar+ in the lower body, tearing the pancreas and bruising the stomach!
Amxaxunaxu McGobbo PONIES!!! you with his Copper Morningstar in the right upper leg, shattering the bone!

I have some modding to do now.

[KrEstoF]

Oh, that's interesting.  What about steel?

[Farmerbob]

Notice that the attack is EDGEd, the contact area is only twice the size than in case of a dagger (5), but the attack type is BASH, so the weight is considered more than velocity (?)

Actually, the attack 'type' you think is actually just a name. The game thinks of it as an edged weapon, but called a 'bash' since that is essentially what you do with a morningstar. If I changed the tag to [ATTACK:EDGE:10:500:PONY!!!:PONIES!!!!!!:NO_SUB:2000], all that would happen is:

You PONY!!! Amxaxunaxu McGobbo with your +Iron Morningstar+ in the lower body, tearing the pancreas and bruising the stomach!
Amxaxunaxu McGobbo PONIES!!! you with his Copper Morningstar in the right upper leg, shattering the bone!

I have some modding to do now.

Hrm, Dwarf Fortress Smurf Mod?

[Tiruin]

If the weapon is BLUNT, then copper and silver are the best materials to pick as that certain type of weapon relies on density and weight to do damage.

The penetration size does not count for BLUNT-type weapons.

IF the weapon is EDGE, then copper and silver are the poorest materials that you could use.

List for EDGE weapon usefulness is as follows, not including quality, material type only:

Any other material not in the list, including silver > copper > bronze > iron > steel > ?

Yep.

[NonconsensualSurgery]

Bismuth bronze crossbows are known to be best for melee, having a strong advantage over copper.

Testing shows that copper and bismuth bronze morningstars are about tied.

[Hotaru]

snip

I don't really understand what you're saying at all. Are you saying the morningstar's attacks are not edge, despite saying so in the raws, or that the copper wielding dwarves' morningstars weren't made of copper?

[Hotaru]

Did 3 more trials just to make sure.

10 dwarves vs. 10 dwarves, all skills proficient, iron armor, steel morningstar vs. copper morningstar:

Round #1: 5 copper wielders survived
Round #2: 7 copper wielders survived

Same, silver morningstar:

Round #1: 4 copper wielders survived

I'd like for someone else to confirm, just in case.

[Tiruin]

snip

I don't really understand what you're saying at all. Are you saying the morningstar's attacks are not edge, despite saying so in the raws, or that the copper wielding dwarves' morningstars weren't made of copper?

No, just clarifying so people would know. Due to the results noted down in this thread.

It's like holding a mace with a cleaver attached! Well, in the terms of DF.

[Intro1827]

Since a morningstar has very low penetration, dense metals are the way to go.

[Hotaru]

After playing about ten adventurers with it, the (copper) morning star is now pretty much my favorite weapon too. It's ubiquitous, in the sense that can be the first thing you run into when dungeon diving, and lethal. Not to mention very badass.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

It's worth saying that it does not overcome its material limitations, however. In arena testing both copper and iron morningstars were completely impotent against bronze colossi - all attacks glanced away, all body parts white even after a long fight. Steel morningstars on the other hand promptly tore one to shreds, as in removing its limbs, although the group of 3 grand masters wielding them did not manage to decapitate the thing and were eventually pushed to death.