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[Sowelu]

I can taste key lime pie.

[Footkerchief]

quote:Originally posted by Asehujiko:
<STRONG>Yup, ranged weapons are overpowered. Oh, wait. Nevermind.</STRONG>

Whoa, how did you get the combat announcements?

[Fedor]

quote:Originally posted by Asehujiko:
<STRONG>Yup, ranged weapons are overpowered. Oh, wait. Nevermind.</STRONG>

Champions versus ordinary footsoldiers.  Superb armor against goblin crap.  This is not evidence.

The problem with ranged weapons in DF isn't that they are unbeatable in all circumstances.  Stack the deck enough, and - as this movie shows - they can be beat.  I've beat them myself using the same methods.

The problem is that they become as powerful as they are so easily.

[gimli]

quote:Originally posted by Fedor:
<STRONG>Champions versus ordinary footsoldiers.  Superb armor against goblin crap.  This is not evidence.

</STRONG>

Heh exactly. That movie is hillarious..Its like 5 titans vs. dwarven miners equipped with pickaxes.      

Elite ranged troops with decent equipment can kill a champ dwarf with 1 shoot.

[ March 21, 2008: Message edited by: gimli ]

[Benitosimies]

Well it's never a good idea for anyone to be walking into a field of flying arrows, in general. Kind of like with bullets. We aren't talking about rad yoshimitsu robot god armor where the bullets just fly off ptew ptang. Arrows mean business.

As for one dwarf slaying a megabeast, I say if the dwarf is tough enough to smite off a dragon's cockles, then that's how mighty she is. Hell yeah. Even if that dragon has slain scores of foes and has grown strong off of stolen cattle. Even if all kings are cowed by its conflagration. If a dwarf has all the might of dwarven ancestors, all the strength of dwarvenkind, then that dwarf will triumph, at least before dying of dragon-related injuries.

[Ergates]

The problem with ranged (as I see it) isn't the damage done by individual bolts/ammo, it's the rate of fire.  Obviously you'd not expect real-life rates of fire, but toning them down a bit would be nice.

[Lalandrathon]

quote:Originally posted by Benitosimies:
<STRONG>Well it's never a good idea for anyone to be walking into a field of flying arrows, in general. Kind of like with bullets. We aren't talking about rad yoshimitsu robot god armor where the bullets just fly off ptew ptang. Arrows mean business.</STRONG>

Then again adamantine is almost four times as strong as steel. And full plate armor akin to what the teutonic knights wore meant business too. Adamantine plate would probably give at least small caliber firearms trouble. But it's easier to make bigger guns than heavier armor, that's the main reason medieval style armor went out of fashion--firepower was no longer limited by the individual's strength.

[Othob Rithol]

Crossbows are so powerful in real life, that at one point the Pope may have banned their use against other Christians wiki. As for penetration, there is a famous case of a knight being stapled to his mount by a longbow arrow.

So the idea that the penetration of DF armors by missle weapons is just plain unfounded. These weapons are that dangerous.

However, they do have a serious fault. As has been mentioned, the rate of fire is just ridiculous, so much so that I call them my assault rifles. Each dwarf whips out their 25 round clip and fires a burst into the goblins' ranks. Cutting the Rate down to 1/2 to 1/4th of its current setting would balance things well.

BTW I have plenty of victories of footdwarves vs goblin bowmen. The key is to provide the footdwarves with something to hide behind as the goblins approach. For instance, under my road in several locations I have small 5x5 bunkers. These are the rally points to squads with "chases enemies" off. As the goblins pass overhead, I switch the "chases enemies" on, and boom - macedwarf ambush. The next generation involves a chokepoint with a bridge over the bunker. When the bridge opens, the goblins drop (and are stunned for moments) into a pit of dwarves...messy.

[Lightman]

I think a single fighter should be able to kill some megabeasts with some very small percentage of success. Why couldn't a single dwarf, a legendary champion, kill a colossus? How else could a champion be legendary?

As for bows/crossbows, well... that is pretty much the nature of projectile weaponry. There isn't a nation in the world that, at one point in time, hasn't been appalled by the horror of that - that a peasant could kill the greatest warrior with a projectile weapon. If we need to make them less effective, lowering the rate-of-fire seems like a good suggestion (like Ergates suggested).

Incidentally, please keep in mind that the word "overpower" means something completely and utterly different than what's being referred to here. Some people think ranged weapons are too powerful not "overpowered".

[Lalandrathon]

Well Othob makes a good point that goblin bowmen tend to be overpowered when dropped into a pit of angry macedwarves.

But really the word can be used both ways.

[Lightman]

[duplicate, deleted]

[ March 24, 2008: Message edited by: Lightman ]

[Orkel]

Whaat, the armor user skill doesn't give the user extra defence/make him harder to kill? Damn. It should, though, maybe just a small boost but still a boost.

[Crafty Barnardo]

quote:Originally posted by Orkel:
<STRONG>Whaat, the armor user skill doesn't give the user extra defence/make him harder to kill? Damn. It should, though, maybe just a small boost but still a boost.</STRONG>

Not really.  Your skill at wearing a piece of armor shouldn't affect the armor's ability to deflect a blow.  That should just be dependent on the quality of the armor.  Armor wearing skill just helps you do other things while wearing armor.

[Orkel]

quote:Originally posted by Crafty Barnardo:
<STRONG>

Not really.  Your skill at wearing a piece of armor shouldn't affect the armor's ability to deflect a blow.  That should just be dependent on the quality of the armor.  Armor wearing skill just helps you do other things while wearing armor.</STRONG>

Yeah, but as in that the soldier learns for example the weak spots in his armour and utilizes the stronger areas better, to give more protection. And this affects his defence. And to learn to deflect blows better with his plate armour, and so on.

[ March 24, 2008: Message edited by: Orkel ]

[anyar]

The rate of fire is way too high, but it shouldn't be changed until military control becomes better(ie: formations, disciplined military, ambushing).