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Author Topic: Are bowmen too beastly?  (Read 4683 times)

Zironic

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Are bowmen too beastly?
« on: March 21, 2008, 02:04:00 am »

One of my champion wrestlers went head to head with a squad of bowmen recently, he died in seconds- even though he was high master in armor use, luckly he was my least like wrestler as he never wanted to train. On a later goblin attack, one of my champion wrestlers killed a whole squad of I believe - lasher goblins, without any help. SO like wtf - Complete iron armor doesn't STOP any arrows?
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Kagus

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Re: Are bowmen too beastly?
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2008, 02:06:00 am »

No.  Only shields.  

Besides, the 'armor user' skill only affects how fast and agile a dwarf is under all that armor.  They don't get any better protection from higher skill levels.

Zironic

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Re: Are bowmen too beastly?
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2008, 02:34:00 am »

they had full shields too. My one that didn't die is legendary at it.
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zagibu

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Re: Are bowmen too beastly?
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2008, 07:26:00 am »

Ranged weapons are overpowered.
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Puzzlemaker

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Re: Are bowmen too beastly?
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2008, 10:19:00 am »

They arn't, they just don't respect armor and critical hits correctly, IMO.
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Zironic

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Re: Are bowmen too beastly?
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2008, 10:27:00 am »

oh hey here is my guy who can withstand: Hammer blows, Sword attacks, and every other physical attack yet a bowman can pierce through the iron and still kill him? Remember Iron plated and steel plated knights were only ussually defeated by knocking them out by hitting their head, because armor was so dang tough to cut through. The first guns didn't even make it through. Of course by the 1700's it was too expensive to make - when guns were getting much more capable.
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gimli

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Re: Are bowmen too beastly?
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2008, 10:37:00 am »

The whole combat system could use a rework to be honest.
1 dwarf can beat a megabeast alone with luck as it is now. Is this making any sense? No.
Ranged  weapons are totally overpowered, everyone knows about it.
I will make a new thread about the combat system problems soon.
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zagibu

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Re: Are bowmen too beastly?
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2008, 11:04:00 am »

quote:
Originally posted by gimli:
<STRONG>The whole combat system could use a rework to be honest.
1 dwarf can beat a megabeast alone with luck as it is now. Is this making any sense? No.
Ranged  weapons are totally overpowered, everyone knows about it.
I will make a new thread about the combat system problems soon.</STRONG>

While I generally agree with you, I think it should be possible that a single dwarf can kill a megabeast. Almost impossible, but not quite. So unlikely, that it wouldn't happen if you tried it a thousand times, but still possible. Because nothing is truly impossible. And imagine the legends you could web around such an event!
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Wawotsch

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Re: Are bowmen too beastly?
« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2008, 12:55:00 pm »

Overpowered in terms of game balance or compared to reality?

Ranged weapons were always a terrible threat to every army of the middle ages. But there might be some differentation between the weapon types in DF:

crossbows had in fact a good chance to penetrate most types of armor because of the high kinetic energy delivered with heavy bolts, it was the first reliable armor penetrating ranged weapon. Crossbows were also easy to fabricate, and did not need a lot of training to be accurate, that's why it was the poors people weapon of choice.

As a drawback, the rate of fire was very slow, you needed some mechanical help to load the bow, and limited range to achive a penetrating hit.

On the other side, bows as the english longbow or compound bows had lesser penetration potential (but it was not impossible), and it took years to become a well trained marksman; accuratly aiming a bow pulled with 80kg takes time. Bows took a long time to produce and needed to be stored carefully to prevent degradation. But they provided an incredible rate of fire and were effective on longer ranges.

Whenever chivalry did not hinder the effective use of these weapons they played a great role on the battefield. But it was not a noble way of fighting, so it often was not used or used in a wrong way, for the nobles it was more important to fight according the rules of chivalry than to simply win a battle.

Btw. two fingers shown for the victory sign, this comes from the feared english archers taunting their enemies showing the two fingers used to draw the bow string.

[ March 21, 2008: Message edited by: Wawotsch ]

[ March 21, 2008: Message edited by: Wawotsch ]

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toast

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Re: Are bowmen too beastly?
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2008, 02:00:00 pm »

its also easy enough to change the damage that a bolt or an arrow does, if you really want.
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Inquisitor Saturn

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Re: Are bowmen too beastly?
« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2008, 02:31:00 pm »

A full statted dwarf with legendary shield and hammer use and a full set of adamantine armor should be able to take out megabeasts.
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BurnedToast

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Re: Are bowmen too beastly?
« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2008, 02:56:00 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by toast:
<STRONG>its also easy enough to change the damage that a bolt or an arrow does, if you really want.</STRONG>

Which helps, but even 1 damage arrows set to blunt damage will break limbs and crush torsos at a fairly high rate because the crit chance seems to be hardcoded.

So yes, archers are overpowered. Bows should do less damage (at least to armored targets) and crossbows should shoot slower. Both should be quite a bit less accurate, especially at range and against moving targets.

It's not as big a deal as some people make it out to be though, legendary shield use plus legendary wrestler will make a dwarf damn near unhittable even by mass ranged weapons.

Anyway Toady knows about it and I imagine it will all get balanced out when the combat arc comes around so no use worrying about it for now. It's pretty easy to remove them from the game completely for now if it really bothers you.

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gimli

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Re: Are bowmen too beastly?
« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2008, 03:00:00 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by Inquisitor Saturn:
<STRONG>A full statted dwarf with legendary shield and hammer use and a full set of adamantine armor should be able to take out megabeasts.</STRONG>

Why? I agree that this is a fantasy game, so why not to post an answer for myself...but you know if I think about a dragon...that dragon is devastating armies in my mind, and definitely wouldn't be killed by a single dwarf regardless of the equipment...
There must be creatures as stong as a whole army, that is fantasy in my head.   ;)

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Asehujiko

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BurnedToast

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Re: Are bowmen too beastly?
« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2008, 03:20:00 pm »

If champions were harder to get, then I would agree with them in full adamantine (or maybe even full steel) soloing megabeasts. As it is now, it's laughably easy to get 'Legendary' skill with maybe a year of training which is really rather silly.

Champions should either be hard to get and as strong as they are now, or quite a bit weaker but still easy to get.

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