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[puke]

These used to be my favorite weapon, as you could stab with them for good penetration, or slash/chop with them to sever limbs.

Now it seems like I can only stab with them.  Am I doing something wrong, or have they changed?

[jaxy15]

Who the hell used pikes as slashing weapons?

[gomwon]

Are you not thinking of halberds? Since they do that. I never heard of pikes doing that.

[Kamamura]

Pikes were extra-long spears basically (3-7.5 meters) that were used almost exclusively in formation. They were absolutely useless for single combat/duelling, and that's why pikemen carried a secondary weapon for that purpose (for example, famous landsknecht "katzbalger" blade). I don't know what it's doing in the game in the first place.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d0/Pike_square_img_3645.jpg

Due to the length, it's obvious they were useless as a cutting weapon, their metal tip even lacked a cutting blade for that purpose.. You want certain types of spears, or halberds, or glaives, guissarmes, war scythes, or polearms like that for cutting - but not pikes. Pikes should not be in the game at all.

[Flying Dice]

Pikes were extra-long spears basically (3-7.5 meters) that were used almost exclusively in formation. They were absolutely useless for single combat/duelling, and that's why pikemen carried a secondary weapon for that purpose (for example, famous landsknecht "katzbalger" blade). I don't know what it's doing in the game in the first place.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d0/Pike_square_img_3645.jpg

Due to the length, it's obvious they were useless as a cutting weapon, their metal tip even lacked a cutting blade for that purpose.. You want certain types of spears, or halberds, or glaives, guissarmes, war scythes, or polearms like that for cutting - but not pikes. Pikes should not be in the game at all.

Quite wrong. A squad of pikemen are the ideal solution to most megabeasts and titans.

But yes, you're thinking of halberds. Or possibly glaives or naginatas if you're using a mod.

[puke]

Oh yeah, halberds.  I seem to remember starting with them by taking the pike skill, but I guess I should look up the RAWs for it.  And then there is the problem that I've not found a weapon shop in this version yet...

edit: Crap, I need the Axe skill.  oh well, my last game locked up anyway.  now I know what skill to take when restarting.

[Kamamura]

Quite wrong. A squad of pikemen are the ideal solution to most megabeasts and titans.

Quite right, sir, but since military squads in the game behave like misguided mobs who sometimes forget even weapons and armor, there is a slim chance of fighting in a formation and using pikes properly.

Not that I would not LOVE to see them implemented properly - I would, and I would cough up some more donations for sure.

A military where pike formations provide cover for squads of marksdwarves and all maneuver cleverly according to banner signals of your commander - ah, the sweet dreams.

[Flying Dice]

Frankly, that isn't likely. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't have them in the game, though; if Toady threw out every feature that wasn't realistically depicted, we wouldn't have much left. For one, no armor, because real platemail was composed of a large number of interconnected pieces. You'd need to toss out 2h swords as well, because technically speaking, 'longsword' covers pretty much everything (European) larger than an arming sword.

[Kamamura]

Frankly, that isn't likely. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't have them in the game, though; if Toady threw out every feature that wasn't realistically depicted, we wouldn't have much left. For one, no armor, because real platemail was composed of a large number of interconnected pieces. You'd need to toss out 2h swords as well, because technically speaking, 'longsword' covers pretty much everything (European) larger than an arming sword.

Now you are mixing apples and pears, but whatever. A pike is utterly useless in single combat, now matter how you call it. Two handed sword is quite different from one-handed sword in the way it is used - and they were indeed taught as separate disciplines in contemporary fencing schools.  What you call them is irrelevant - Germans called them "zweihanders".

Some level of abstraction is useful ("it's only a model!" to quote one silly knight), however depicting pikes as they are is misleading. Try to navigate the staircases and underground corridors with a 7 meters long stick, and if you succeed, try to use it to fight someone.

That said, I don't expect formation combat in the game. It would be nice enough to see the long-standing major bugs squished, and I agree, it's much higher priority. Screw the pikes.

[saltmummy626]

I believe historically the pike was a weapon used by men placed at the head of groups of soldiers to break up or attempt to stop cavalry charges, and once they closed with other soldiers on foot, they had another weapon to fight with. seriously though, a tight group of pike men would beat a trained group of cavalry almost every time. the problem was with bravery. a man seeing tons of horseflesh and steel bearing down on them would have to keep a tight reign on their sense of self preservation or risk scattering and being slaughtered.

[Flying Dice]

Of course, dwarves have the opposite problem:

"Hey, Urist, d'you see that goblin lasher over there?"

"CHAAAARGE!"


That said, it does seem rather silly to be complaining about inaccurate use of pikes when we have things like adventurers dual wielding swords while holding two shields in each hand, perpetual motion waterwheels, and so on and so forth. For that matter, if you go by the raws rather than historical information, pikes are twice the size of spears, whereas real life pikes were more than 2x the size of most real life pole weapons, and are actually markedly smaller than 2h swords and halberds. Admittedly, the [SIZE:] token is more relevant as a measure of volume, but because of the way they work, pikes in DF are actually medium sized weapons. So by the game's own logic, it makes sense, and it isn't entirely unreasonable to just assume that 'pike' signifies another type of weapon, given that DF worlds are not Earth-normal, and never developed normal pike tactics, not least because of the low levels of cavalry use. If it really bothers you that much, just play with that in mind.

[Kamamura]

I believe historically the pike was a weapon used by men placed at the head of groups of soldiers to break up or attempt to stop cavalry charges, and once they closed with other soldiers on foot, they had another weapon to fight with. seriously though, a tight group of pike men would beat a trained group of cavalry almost every time. the problem was with bravery. a man seeing tons of horseflesh and steel bearing down on them would have to keep a tight reign on their sense of self preservation or risk scattering and being slaughtered.

You are right, but there were exceptions to the rule. Swiss, for example, learned to use a mobile, tight pike formation in an offensive manner even against infantry, similar to Greek Phalanx, and achieved splendid victories. But that is completely irrelevant to DF, I admit - in DF, I would be happy if my military does not come to battle naked.